Happy Trails Mariano Topic

MikeT23
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And I think he pitches either A) in the playoffs B) next year.

5/4/2012 9:36 PM
tecwrg
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He's already made a statement today that says he's going to get this fixed and pitch in 2013.
5/4/2012 9:55 PM
boogerlips
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Best backup pitcher of all time.
5/4/2012 10:06 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 5/4/2012 9:55:00 PM (view original):
He's already made a statement today that says he's going to get this fixed and pitch in 2013.
Meh.  I miss **** sometimes.  
5/4/2012 10:43 PM
mitchrapp
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Posted by burnsy483 on 5/4/2012 2:20:00 PM (view original):
You can get someone to replace Rivera.  Im sure Robertson and/or Soriano will do fine there.  You couldn't replace A-Rod in his best years on the Yankees. 

That said, he'd definitely go on the Yankee Mount Rushmore over A-Rod. Other than Jeter, he's the face of the Yankees for the last 15 years.
Sure you can put someone in the closer role but they won't be near 'Mo good. Not even close. 
5/5/2012 12:11 AM
jrd_x
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Billy Wagner's career numbers are almost just as good as Rivera's. Rivera was great but to say he changed the game is ridiculous. He was a relief pitcher. He almost always came into the game with a lead and got three outs.

If we're going to put relief pitchers in the Hall, sure he gets in, right next to Hoffman, Wagner, etc. but he isn't inner circle.
5/5/2012 12:19 AM
MikeT23
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I'd say you haven't watched much baseball over the last 15 years.    But even your stat book should tell you what you need to know.
5/5/2012 5:48 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by jrd_x on 5/5/2012 12:19:00 AM (view original):
Billy Wagner's career numbers are almost just as good as Rivera's. Rivera was great but to say he changed the game is ridiculous. He was a relief pitcher. He almost always came into the game with a lead and got three outs.

If we're going to put relief pitchers in the Hall, sure he gets in, right next to Hoffman, Wagner, etc. but he isn't inner circle.
Here we go again . . . "expert analysis", hot off the short bus . . . 
5/5/2012 7:08 AM
mudbone1969
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Posted by boogerlips on 5/4/2012 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Best backup pitcher of all time.
This is a MikeT-level moke.  VERY well done, boog!!
5/5/2012 11:11 AM
jrd_x
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/5/2012 5:48:00 AM (view original):
I'd say you haven't watched much baseball over the last 15 years.    But even your stat book should tell you what you need to know.
It does. It tells me that Rivera was a great relief pitcher. He's a Hall of Famer. But he isn't some legendary player.
5/5/2012 11:11 AM
tecwrg
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If he's the GOAT, he just might be a legendary player.
5/5/2012 12:03 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by tecwrg on 5/5/2012 12:03:00 PM (view original):
If he's the GOAT, he just might be a legendary player.
But he's not the greatest pitcher of all time.  He's probably the greatest non-starter but again...skinniest kid at fat camp.  Billy Wagner has very similar career stats and no one is arguing that he belongs among the all time greatest players.

Rivera is 1/3 great relief pitcher, 1/3 awesome playoff performances, and 1/3 Yankee hype.
5/5/2012 12:10 PM
trsnoke
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Here's an article about Mo's results vs. rest of Yankees bullpen over his career but only goes through 2009 (article is a reprint).  On average, Mo was worth between 1.5 - 2.0 wins more per year than rest of Yankee bullpen from 1997-2009 based on # of games team won with a lead of 3 runs, 2 runs, 1 run and tie games and games trailing with and without Mo.  Article points out that Yankees bullpen was better than league average so Mo was worth a bit more than that vs. rest of league.

www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-yankees-with-no-mo/
5/5/2012 3:01 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by jrd_x on 5/5/2012 12:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 5/5/2012 12:03:00 PM (view original):
If he's the GOAT, he just might be a legendary player.
But he's not the greatest pitcher of all time.  He's probably the greatest non-starter but again...skinniest kid at fat camp.  Billy Wagner has very similar career stats and no one is arguing that he belongs among the all time greatest players.

Rivera is 1/3 great relief pitcher, 1/3 awesome playoff performances, and 1/3 Yankee hype.

"no one is arguing that he belongs among the all time greatest players"


There's a reason for that. 

 

 

5/5/2012 3:03 PM
Jtpsops
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It all comes down to what goes into to determining the value of a player. If you're just a stat geek, then sure, you're gonna say "Mariano was the best reliever of all time, but nowhere near as valuable as a starter or a position player who played so many more innings."  And there is some truth to that. But if you're taking everything into account - Mariano has been almost lights out his entire career, and with only 1-2 pitches. Plus he's performed in one of the most high-pressure cities, and some of the most high-pressure moments (pennant races, playoffs, WS).

Not to mention Rivera has saved games at a nearly 90% clip for 15 years. Wagner is at 86% in almost 200 fewer chances. Hoffman's at 89%, barely behind Rivera, but again, didn't gain the reputation Rivera did with where he pitched and all the playoff experience.

Is Rivera among the greatest players ever? Probably not. Is there another closer I'd put in his league? MAYBE Hoffman, but Trevor's still a distant second.
5/5/2012 3:20 PM
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