Thanks!!

Jeter = "throw away"

Jeter may have slowed on defense but he remains one of the best players in baseball and is easily among the very best during the seasons since 1996. I was dumbstruck when I posted some stats favorable to Jeter and some people actually made the following argument: 

Jeter has the most hits of any player during the past 20 years. But it is a steroid era with a lot of offense, so his accomplishment is less. 

Um, that means in reality: it was a big offensive era. The stats were inflated due to steroids. Jeter was better than everyone else. Jeter did not take steroids. So he was the best hitter in an era of inflated offensive stats in which his stats are not inflated, making his batting accomplishments even greater. That is the reality. 

Posted by italyprof on 3/12/2013 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Jeter may have slowed on defense but he remains one of the best players in baseball and is easily among the very best during the seasons since 1996. I was dumbstruck when I posted some stats favorable to Jeter and some people actually made the following argument: 

Jeter has the most hits of any player during the past 20 years. But it is a steroid era with a lot of offense, so his accomplishment is less. 

Um, that means in reality: it was a big offensive era. The stats were inflated due to steroids. Jeter was better than everyone else. Jeter did not take steroids. So he was the best hitter in an era of inflated offensive stats in which his stats are not inflated, making his batting accomplishments even greater. That is the reality. 

How do you know Jeter didn't take steroids?

I personally give very few ***** about who did or didn't use steroids, so I don't care.  Jeter is and has been a very good hitter.  Not the best, and I think italyprof's phrasing that "he was the best hitter in an era of inflated offensive stats... that is the reality" - while, contextually, only supposed to be read in the context of accumulating hits - is misleading.  Just because he got a lot of hits doesn't make him a great hitter.  Certainly I would take guys like Jim Thome, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield, A-Rod, Griffey, and Chipper Jones who played most of their careers during the same general time frame ahead of Jeter from a purely offensive standpoint.

Per Fangraphs, over the course of Jeter's career only A-Rod, Chipper, and Manny have more runs created (wRC) than Jeter.  Of course, most players don't overlap perfectly with Jeter; in fact, not only does Jeter lead the world in plate appearances since the beginning of 1995, only A-Rod and Damon are within 1000 of him.  That's almost 2 full seasons of extra opportunities, although the ability to stay consistently healthy contributes to that and is a positive.  When you look at wRC+, still an all-offensive statistic, Jeter is at 122 - good, but nowhere near great.  Tied for 84th since 1995 amongst FanGraphs qualifying players, as it turns out (if I require at least 5000 PAs, it's still only tied for 44th).

All the same, 44th isn't bad at all for a SS.  Sure, it's no A-Rod.  But the only other SS ahead of Jeter is Nomar, and for those who do care about steroids he's a guy who likely used.  As did A-Rod, of course.  The problem is that, realistically, Jeter has never had any business being a shortstop - based on advanced defensive metrics, he's been showing up at the bottom of the league throughout his career.  He can't move to his left to save his life.

So yeah, Jeter is and has been good, and probably belongs in the HOF.  But he's certainly not an all-time great.  I don't even know that I love him for the Hall, but I'm pretty sure he'll go in and he's good enough that it won't be ridiculous.

Still, his name is still printed on boxes all over Francophone world in the same spot where "disposable" shows up in the English.  Seriously, look at any box of anything disposable you have with French text.  "A Jeter."  True story.

I did mean only as someone who got hits, and hit with some power - enough that in a different era he would have wow-ed people. But no, I do not for a minute claim he is even in the top 5 hitters of that era - I would add Mike Piazza to your list. 
 
Yes, "A Jeter" mean "throw" en Francais.

But in Italian "piazza" means square. So there you go. 

This is stupid:

"So yeah, Jeter is and has been good, and probably belongs in the HOF.  But he's certainly not an all-time great.  I don't even know that I love him for the Hall, but I'm pretty sure he'll go in and he's good enough that it won't be ridiculous."


Any credibility you think you have on the subject of baseball has been ****** out the window.   There's no question that he belongs in the HOF.   "good enough" isn't even in play.   Idiot.

Posted by dahsdebater on 3/12/2013 6:55:00 PM (view original):
I personally give very few ***** about who did or didn't use steroids, so I don't care.  Jeter is and has been a very good hitter.  Not the best, and I think italyprof's phrasing that "he was the best hitter in an era of inflated offensive stats... that is the reality" - while, contextually, only supposed to be read in the context of accumulating hits - is misleading.  Just because he got a lot of hits doesn't make him a great hitter.  Certainly I would take guys like Jim Thome, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, Gary Sheffield, A-Rod, Griffey, and Chipper Jones who played most of their careers during the same general time frame ahead of Jeter from a purely offensive standpoint.

Per Fangraphs, over the course of Jeter's career only A-Rod, Chipper, and Manny have more runs created (wRC) than Jeter.  Of course, most players don't overlap perfectly with Jeter; in fact, not only does Jeter lead the world in plate appearances since the beginning of 1995, only A-Rod and Damon are within 1000 of him.  That's almost 2 full seasons of extra opportunities, although the ability to stay consistently healthy contributes to that and is a positive.  When you look at wRC+, still an all-offensive statistic, Jeter is at 122 - good, but nowhere near great.  Tied for 84th since 1995 amongst FanGraphs qualifying players, as it turns out (if I require at least 5000 PAs, it's still only tied for 44th).

All the same, 44th isn't bad at all for a SS.  Sure, it's no A-Rod.  But the only other SS ahead of Jeter is Nomar, and for those who do care about steroids he's a guy who likely used.  As did A-Rod, of course.  The problem is that, realistically, Jeter has never had any business being a shortstop - based on advanced defensive metrics, he's been showing up at the bottom of the league throughout his career.  He can't move to his left to save his life.

So yeah, Jeter is and has been good, and probably belongs in the HOF.  But he's certainly not an all-time great.  I don't even know that I love him for the Hall, but I'm pretty sure he'll go in and he's good enough that it won't be ridiculous.

Still, his name is still printed on boxes all over Francophone world in the same spot where "disposable" shows up in the English.  Seriously, look at any box of anything disposable you have with French text.  "A Jeter."  True story.

I think Jeter is a sold mid-tier hall of famer. He's not inner circle Bonds/Ruth/May/Wagner/Ripken/Arod, but he falls right in at the Tony Gwynn/Tim Raines/Paul Molitor/Barry Larkin level.

We must be spoiled from having several really good hitting shortstops in our lifetime.  Even if you think Jeter's defense is overrated by the Gold Glove voters, and I do, players that are even capable of fielding that position that hit like Jeter has - and to do both for so darn long - are very rare in baseball history.

It's just haterade.   I can't think of a player I despise more than Pedro Martinez.     But it would be utterly moronic for me to say "Meh.  He had some good years, and he's probably good enough to be in the HOF, but I don't know if he's a lock.   He only won 219 games in 18 seasons, he isn't top 10 in strikeouts and, quite frankly, he wasn't as good in the playoffs.   But he'll probably make it."

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/13/2013 8:34:00 AM (view original):
This is stupid:

"So yeah, Jeter is and has been good, and probably belongs in the HOF.  But he's certainly not an all-time great.  I don't even know that I love him for the Hall, but I'm pretty sure he'll go in and he's good enough that it won't be ridiculous."


Any credibility you think you have on the subject of baseball has been ****** out the window.   There's no question that he belongs in the HOF.   "good enough" isn't even in play.   Idiot.

Obviously you're going to think that.  117 career OPS+, 122 wRC+, those are not shoe-in numbers.  So he has 3000 hits.  I don't like that standard; in fact, I feel like Molitor was pretty borderline as well.  Not a lot of black ink on Jeter's player page - led the leagues in runs once, did lead in hits twice but never in hitting.  Both of the years he led the league in hits he also led in PAs, so he had that advantage.

Obviously he's going in, almost certainly on the first-ballot.  There's no question in my mind that he's far less deserving than many guys who haven't gone in on the first ballot.  But 3000 hits will do it, as well as winning WS titles, as if that were somehow an individual accomplishment...  Now someone is going to say "BUT JETER IS THE NEW MR. OCTOBER!!!  HE'S SO GOOD IN THE POSTSEASON!!!"

Derek Jeter regular season - .313/.382/.448
Derek Jeter postseason - .308/.374/.465

Looks basically the same to me...

So yeah, I'll stick with what I said.  He'll go in, and that's fine, but he's not nearly as good as some of the guys bad_luck just mentioned - Gwynn in particular.  Raines isn't in, and he has a 123 career OPS+ to Jeter's 117 and a much better baserunning record.  126 wRC+ to Jeter's 122.  And a better defender, albeit at a less premium position.  So tell me again how with Raines not in Jeter is a no-doubter in your mind.  I mean, he is, because he's the Yankee captain, like I care...  But people love him.  Like you, obviously.  But objectively...  If you throw out the 3000 hits, which realistically is a totally arbitrary benchmark, there's nothing on Jeter's player page that really jumps off.

jeter is the current 'mr november' actually

If Jeter played LF, he's less of a lock.  But he plays SS.

If you think you'll suck me into a "What about this guy?" argument, you're mistaken.  But I'll do one:   I've said before that Raines ****** himself with his "I slid headfirst so I wouldn't break the coke vials in my back pocket."    That might have been a cool thing to say in HS while trying to impress the freshman girls but not so much as a BL player.   

As far as post-season, you won't find many players who A) have that many post-season AB and B) maintain their career numbers in the post-season.   Not many times during the regular season to you face a Verlander or Martinez 3 times in 7 games. 

Sustaining a high level of performance in the postseason is pretty damn good considering you're likely hitting against the best pitchers of your league, and possibly the best pitchers of the other league as well.  Jeter is a slam-dunk Hall-of-Famer, and one of the top 5 hitting shortstops of all-time. 

Based on the media and slobbering adulation of the casual fan (aka, women and MikeT), he's the Tom Brady of MLB.  He gets way too much attention for just walking around town with supermodels, and his occasional good plays are replayed like they're manna from heaven.

Add LeBron and Sidney Crosby and you'll have the Mt Rushmore of ESPN-knob-slobbering.