All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 253 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/22/2013 7:37 PM
"Coach, what's this ****?"
"Rock, you've had 4 straight days off.  Figured we'd get you back on the field."
"****!  I've already played 114 this season.  You trying to kill me or something?!?!?!"
8/22/2013 7:55 PM
That response is a little bit of a let down.
8/22/2013 8:57 PM (edited)
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 6:36:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm saying that he appeared on a major league team in parts of 23 seasons totaling the equivalent of about 16 162 game seasons.

I don't see why that's so mind blowing.
And how much WAR did he accumulate during the equivalent of about 7 162 game seasons that he got paid for but didn't play?

8/22/2013 10:02 PM
To be fair, Raines played during two strike years and the first two "years" of his career only got 27 PA as he was just up for a cup of coffee as a 19/20 yr old.  He was a full time player for 15 consecutive years (1981 - 1995), averaging 600 PA over that time even with missed time from the strikes. When he became a part time player at age 36, his salary was cut and his salaries over his last three years were $600K, $350K, $350K (he made $3.7 million his last year as a full-time player)so he wasn't getting paid to be a full-time player when he wasn't a full-time player.
8/23/2013 12:15 AM
Howz bout this...

Neither one of them deserves to be in the hall.......BUT....

I'd put Ichiro in because of his lineage as a groundbreaker for Japanese players and the fact that, though he was a singles hitter in a corner OF spot, he was still an amazing hitter. Raines could steal a base or five, but was never even CLOSE to the overall player that Ichiro was, and is. Plus, if Dawson and Rice are in, I kinda think Ich deserves his spot, and by that criteria, so does Raines. But if it were up to me, the only one of those four that would get in would be Ichiro. Dawson and Rice didn't deserve to get in, neither does Raines, but Ichiro is a different story, plus he's still going and could easily play for another 3 to 5 years, thus padding his stats MUCH farther.

8/23/2013 8:02 AM
Ichiro is padding hit totals but just bringing his AVG/OBP/SLG down.  I'd vote Raines in - he wasn't the defensive player Ichiro was but he was a better offensive player.  Raines still had above average OBP skills as he declined and even decent double totals, given his plate appearances.  Ichiro is an out machine.
8/23/2013 8:05 AM
Little League rules.  

A WALK'S AS GOOD AS A HIT!!!

8/23/2013 9:33 AM

Not quite, of course, but getting on base more means making less outs.  That has value.  I'll take a .385 OBP in 10,400+ PA with more power and speed vs. a .362 OBP in 9200 PA. 

8/23/2013 9:36 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/22/2013 8:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/22/2013 6:36:00 PM (view original):
No, I'm saying that he appeared on a major league team in parts of 23 seasons totaling the equivalent of about 16 162 game seasons.

I don't see why that's so mind blowing.
And how much WAR did he accumulate during the equivalent of about 7 162 game seasons that he got paid for but didn't play?

So you're saying that the cups of coffee Raines got when he was 19 and 20, along with becoming a part time player in his late 30s and 40s (like Ichiro is becoming now) somehow reduces the value of his production while he was a full time player.

Stupid.
8/23/2013 9:48 AM
Let's see the categories each player wins:

Raines

Runs
Doubles
Triples
Home Runs
RBI
SB
SB%
OBP
SLG
OPS
OPS+
TB
WAR

Ichiro
BA
Hits
Defense (using eyes or D-metrics)

What are we arguing again?
8/23/2013 9:49 AM
Yeah, I was just making fun of statnerds.     Honestly, I've never been a fan of Ichiro but the whole walk/hit thing annoys me a bit.    Some hitters are called selfish for walking("You gotta put the ball in play and drive in the run in that situation!!") and others are called selfish for not walking("You gotta work the pitcher and get on base in that situation!!!") so the "value" probably flucuates from AB to AB.   

I'm not sure, based on his stats, that Ichiro is a HOFER.  But, as I said earlier, the FAME parts puts him in.   It's not an exact Jackie Robinson situation but he changed the way we viewed Japanese players.   He was the first position player to make an impact.   And he was a star.     Not so much with Raines.
8/23/2013 9:53 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/23/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):
Let's see the categories each player wins:

Raines

Runs
Doubles
Triples
Home Runs
RBI
SB
SB%
OBP
SLG
OPS
OPS+
TB
WAR

Ichiro
BA
Hits
Defense (using eyes or D-metrics)

What are we arguing again?

Giving a guy an extra 500 games makes it pretty easy to accumulate numbers.    Disagree?

8/23/2013 9:55 AM
In 1993 at the age of 33 Raines missed 47 games. His ops+ was138. The ops+ of the guys that replaced him while he was out, 94, 79, 60, 139(warren newsom's 22 innings).

Ichiro has missed 33 games in his career coming into this season. 16 of those in one year. Don't overlook durability.
8/23/2013 10:04 AM
I'd prefer to say 1180 plate appearances, but sure.  You want to say it's 2 more full seasons?  Great.  Ichiro needs to average 54 doubles a year to catch Raines.  He needs 15 triples a year to catch him.  He needs 30 homers a year to catch him.  Runs and RBI are largely out of his control, but he also wouldn't be able to catch him there, either.  He'd also have to be a 5.5 win player to catch Raines in WAR, something he hasn't done since 2007 (and dWAR helps him out in this stat, even this year).  So what stats are you talking about?  The only thing he'd catch Raines in is TB.
8/23/2013 10:05 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/23/2013 9:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/23/2013 9:48:00 AM (view original):
Let's see the categories each player wins:

Raines

Runs
Doubles
Triples
Home Runs
RBI
SB
SB%
OBP
SLG
OPS
OPS+
TB
WAR

Ichiro
BA
Hits
Defense (using eyes or D-metrics)

What are we arguing again?

Giving a guy an extra 500 games makes it pretty easy to accumulate numbers.    Disagree?

Not for things like OBP, SLG, OPS+, and SB%.
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