All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 213 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/26/2013 6:33 PM
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
8/26/2013 6:34 PM
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 6:27:00 PM (view original):
To me, the debate should be less about the individual fielding stats for each player, but rather about the value of those stats given the position they play.  Mattingly is (well, was) all time favorite ballplayer.  That said, the true baseball fan in me can't say that his value at 1b is higher/better than the value of a very good center fielder with a ton of range. 
What's the value in getting to a ball and then booting it?
8/26/2013 6:35 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:32:00 PM (view original):
A great first baseman makes the entire infield better.
Yes, and a center fielder with great range does the same for the outfield.  You can position your left and right fielders differently if you have a stud center fielder because he will get to some balls that normally would be caught by the corner guys.
8/26/2013 6:36 PM
Rickey Henderson was NOT a stud CF. 
8/26/2013 6:38 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 6:27:00 PM (view original):
To me, the debate should be less about the individual fielding stats for each player, but rather about the value of those stats given the position they play.  Mattingly is (well, was) all time favorite ballplayer.  That said, the true baseball fan in me can't say that his value at 1b is higher/better than the value of a very good center fielder with a ton of range. 
What's the value in getting to a ball and then booting it?
haha, true....9 errors is too many.  432 put outs in 141 games is pretty impressive, though.  Ken Griffey Jr is considered an all time great center fielder, but he had seasons where he made 9+ errors, and his career fielding mark for center field was .985.
8/26/2013 6:38 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
Kenny Lofton should receive the same consideration for the HOF as players like, oh, let's say, Luis Sojo.  A quick glance to say "Um, no".
8/26/2013 6:39 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:02:00 PM (view original):
Nine errors in center is a lot for an outfielder.
League average fielding percentage for CF in 1985 was .988. Henderson was at .980.

It looks like the high error total was more of a function of his range than anything else. He had a RF/9 of 3.31 (best in MLB) while league average was 2.91.
Could his higher range factor be a product of Yankee Stadium and its old centerfield dimensions?


While you're looking up defensive stats you should look at Mattinglys.
Maybe. Range factor isn't a great stat. But it isn't unreasonable to assume that a guy as fast a Henderson was could get to a lot of balls. And, since he got to so many, increased the likelihood of errors.

I did look at Mattingly's defensive stats. They don't tell you much. He was below average in range factor, but range factor is next to useless for first basemen. He was slightly above average for fielding percentage, but fielding percentage for a first baseman isn't any more useful than range factor. dWAR was meh on him for that year, -0.9.

He won a gold glove but we can ask Rafael Palmeiro and Derek Jeter how accurate that award is. Probably just a popularity contest.

Mattingly had a great year in 85, but Henderson (and 1986 Mattingly) was better.
8/26/2013 6:39 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:36:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was NOT a stud CF. 
He made too many errors in 1985, I agree with that.  BUT he also led the league in outfield range.  That says something, no?
8/26/2013 6:41 PM
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 6:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:36:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was NOT a stud CF. 
He made too many errors in 1985, I agree with that.  BUT he also led the league in outfield range.  That says something, no?
It could say that the Yankees had a fly-ball pitching staff.

More fly-balls --> more opportunities for Rickey.
8/26/2013 6:42 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
Like Ichiro????
8/26/2013 6:42 PM
being ninth all time in fielding percentage is slightly above average?
8/26/2013 6:43 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 8/26/2013 6:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:36:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was NOT a stud CF. 
He made too many errors in 1985, I agree with that.  BUT he also led the league in outfield range.  That says something, no?
It could say that the Yankees had a fly-ball pitching staff.

More fly-balls --> more opportunities for Rickey.
Sure. More opportunities usually lead to more errors also. Which is why his fielding percentage was only slightly below league average for a CF that year.
8/26/2013 6:43 PM
Henderson had a weak arm and didn't really take good angles in CF.   He was fast.   I can't recall his "read" on balls but he could have been a lot better at getting to balls in the gap.  However, he didn't like CF because it tired his legs.   Rickey says Rickey wants to steal not chase down fly balls.
8/26/2013 6:44 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/26/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
being ninth all time in fielding percentage is slightly above average?
His fielding percentage in 1985 was .995. League average for a 1st baseman in 1985 was .991.

I would call 0.004 slightly.
8/26/2013 6:45 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
Like Ichiro????
Lofton was a black guy playing CF for 20 teams.  Ichiro was a rock star.   Hall of FAME.
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