All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition
2/17/2012 5:01 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Incorrect, KCD.  When arguing with stat-nerds, you have to fight on their turf. 

I watched all three as a child/teenager.  Ryan "felt" like the best pitcher ever, Carlton "felt" like a guy who needed to pitch for a better team and Hunter "felt" like he was in the right place at the right time.  But a child falls in love with the magical no-hitter and 100 MPH fastball.

Hunter was to Ryan as Maddux was to Johnson. 
Wait, are you arguing Ryan should or should not be in the HOF?  You previous post makes it sound like you think he should not be.
2/17/2012 5:13 PM
I said I'm not sure Ryan deserves to be there with the all-time greats.    But, as a child, I thought he was fantastic.  Because throwing a ball harder than anyone else seemed like a magical ability.   I'm pretty picky about who I think should be in the HOF.  I put him on my 11 man pitching staff on the HOF team because he was capable of a great game every now and then.    That doesn't mean he was one of the best of all-time. 

To continue along, even as an adult, I'd much rather watch Johnson, Clemens, even Wood have those great games where every batter seemed to be overmatched than watch Maddux and Glavine throw the ball an inch further outside on each pitch because the ump called the previous one a strike.   Hell, I'd rather see a 500 ft homerun than a perfectly executed hit and run.  That doesn't mean pinpoint control is any less important than an amazing fastball.
2/17/2012 5:41 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/2012 3:35:00 PM (view original):
So, do tell us why Carlton is more deserving than Hunter.     I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS!!!!
Wow, you went from "CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS!!!!" to ...no response.
2/17/2012 7:26 PM
Isn't there something to be said for playing a long time and being healthy???  While it can lead to some stats looking better by the raw numbers, being good enough to play a long time at a high level should mean something.  Not everything, but something.  Look at Yaz.  A couple of real dominant years.  A bunch of good years.  A bunch of average years.  Add them up, and his totals are pretty impressive.  Should he be in or out.  I'm assuming Mike, you think he should be out.
2/17/2012 7:50 PM
Posted by jrd_x on 2/17/2012 5:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/2012 3:35:00 PM (view original):
So, do tell us why Carlton is more deserving than Hunter.     I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS!!!!
Wow, you went from "CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS!!!!" to ...no response.
Patience, boy, I'll get to it.   Probably tomorrow. 
2/18/2012 9:11 AM (edited)

Posnanski just blogged about Hall of Fame and playing time.  Now the players that stick around longest are obviously good or they wouldn't be able to stick around so long but I think it is still interesting:

"There are 25 players in baseball history with more than 10,000 at-bats.  -- 21 of them are in the Hall of Fame.  -- 2 are active (Derek Jeter and Omar Vizquel). Jeter is a Hall of Fame lock. -- 2 are not in the Hall of Fame because they committed what many people consider to be baseball cardinal sins (Pete Rose and Rafael Palmeiro).

There are 28 pitchers in baseball history with more than 4,000 innings pitched.  -- 20 of them are in the Hall of Fame.  -- 4 are almost certain to get into the Hall of Fame soon (Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine).  That leaves four pitchers … and you want to talk about eerie similarities. The four pitchers with 4,000 innings who may never get into the Hall of Fame are Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Frank Tanana, Jamie Moyer

Look at that -- could you find four more similar pitchers? The Hall of Fame formula seems to go like this: If you pitch 4,000 innings in the big leagues, you absolutely WILL go to the Hall of Fame … that is unless you are a crafty lefty with an ERA+ between 104 and 111, fewer than 300 victories, somewhere between 2,200 and 2,800 strikeouts and somewhere between 1,000 and 1,300 walks. In that subset, zero percent will go to the Hall of Fame."

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/02/3000-hits.html
2/18/2012 9:10 AM
COMPILERS DO NOT EQUAL HOF MATERIAL
2/18/2012 9:20 AM
It seems the HOF voters disagree with you.  Too bad we can't kick them out.
2/18/2012 9:29 AM
I think he cheated a little, though, by using at-bats instead of plate appearances.  I bet there are more players with 10,000+ plate appearances that aren't in and may not get in.  Maybe I'll look that up later.  That's probably a list of high walk guys that didn't have all-time great batting averages or hit totals but still got on base as much or more than some HOF guys. And 10,000 is obviously an arbitrary cutoff ...
2/18/2012 11:15 AM
Posted by antoncresten on 2/18/2012 9:10:00 AM (view original):
COMPILERS DO NOT EQUAL HOF MATERIAL
So go ahead and kick some compilers out. It's a group project, and open to anyone. We're not actually removing these players from the Hall, so no need to fret too much about it. And perhaps some other players can shift the discussion away from Catfish Hunter. I think we've well established that no one will be persuaded either way. While I can't prevent anyone from carrying on the argument, I do believe it is a dead end and that we should move on.
2/18/2012 11:39 AM

BE EASIER TO LIST THOSE WHO STAY IN

MY HALL WOULD HAVE  VERY FEW MEMBERS

2/18/2012 12:41 PM
Posted by antoncresten on 2/18/2012 11:39:00 AM (view original):

BE EASIER TO LIST THOSE WHO STAY IN

MY HALL WOULD HAVE  VERY FEW MEMBERS

I'm okay with that. I can figure out who you want removed by your list of those who should be in.
2/18/2012 1:43 PM
Posted by antoncresten on 2/18/2012 9:10:00 AM (view original):
COMPILERS DO NOT EQUAL HOF MATERIAL
True, but lasting a long time isn't necessarily compiling.  There's a difference between a hitter sticking around and making a ton of outs and pitching sticking around and getting a ton of outs.  One has positive value the other has negative value.

For Carlton specifically, he was able to pitch over 5000 innings at a high level overall.  That's an exceptionally rare ability and he almost certainly belongs in the Hall of Fame.  Or at least my Hall.  Someone who believes in an extremely small Hall might make an argument that he doesn't belong.  I'd be willing to listen to that argument.

But it's pretty much impossible to argue that Carlton doesn't belong but Catfish Hunter does.  
2/18/2012 3:27 PM
OK. let's discuss a pitcher's "job".
1,  Take the mound.
Both had a ten year stretch where they averaged over 275 innings per season(H-277, C-279).   Pretty much a wash.

2.  Prevent runs.
Career era of 3.26(H) and 3.22(C)   Nothing to see there.

Secondary "job"
Limit baserunners.  Less baserunners, more time in the dugout for everyone.   1.134(H) to 1.247(C)     Hunter walked less AND gave up less hits per 9.

As an added bonus, Hunter maintained his ERA in the post-season and actually improved his WHIP to 1.126.    Carlton's ERA rose to 3.26(not really a big jump but I think it's fun to note it) and his WHIP was a very pedestrian 1.48.  Hell, that's worse than AJ Burnett in the post-season.

Carlton is considered the better pitcher, by most, simply because he stuck around for 20someodd seasons and accumulated numbers.   Plain and simple.
2/18/2012 3:41 PM
Hunter pitched 3449 innings with an ERA+ of 105
Carlton pitched 5217 innings with an ERA+ of 115

That seems like more than simply sticking around accumulating numbers


of 79
All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.