This looks normal to me!

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 12:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I think we know what Rivera was a starter.    No idea what Pedro would have been as a closer.  If you don't think it requires a different mindset, I don't know what to tell you.

Sure it takes a different mindset.  You only have to get three guys out and your team already has the lead.

But I don't think you can argue that Pedro didn't have the skill set to close.  We know Rivera didn't have the skill set to start.

I can argue that we don't know.

SP have a routine because they know they're pitching every 5th day.   Closers sit around, doing nothing for 7 innings, sometimes for days on end.   Pedro may have gotten fat on mangos in that role.   He may not have been able to throw 15 pitches and be ready to enter the game.    He might have lacked the mental focus to do nothing then enter a high pressure situation.

But I'm sure you know he could have done it.   I just don't know how you know this.

As a 21 year old, Pedro was a pretty darn good relief pitcher.  It's not much of a stretch to think that he would have been insanely dominant as a relief pitcher in his prime.  It would been a criminally stupid waste to use Pedro as a reliever, but he would have been good.

Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 12:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I think we know what Rivera was a starter.    No idea what Pedro would have been as a closer.  If you don't think it requires a different mindset, I don't know what to tell you.

Sure it takes a different mindset.  You only have to get three guys out and your team already has the lead.

But I don't think you can argue that Pedro didn't have the skill set to close.  We know Rivera didn't have the skill set to start.

I can argue that we don't know.

SP have a routine because they know they're pitching every 5th day.   Closers sit around, doing nothing for 7 innings, sometimes for days on end.   Pedro may have gotten fat on mangos in that role.   He may not have been able to throw 15 pitches and be ready to enter the game.    He might have lacked the mental focus to do nothing then enter a high pressure situation.

But I'm sure you know he could have done it.   I just don't know how you know this.

Sure, it's possible that Pedro wouldn't have had the mentality to succeed as a closer but it's unlikely enough such that it's safe to assume that he would have been great.  You'd have to have a very, very weird personality to be able to dominate as a SP like he did but not translate to the bullpen.

So a dude toting a midget around doesn't have a very weird personality?   Or a guy that slams Humpty Dumpty to the ground doesn't have a very weird personality?  or a guy who says "I'll play baseball or sit under the mango trees.  I'll be happy either way" doesn't have some personality quirks?

Pedro was a weird bro, but not in the sense that it would lead to possible failure as a closer imo.  Weird was probably the wrong word choice, moreover you would need some Knoblauch-esque action going on inside your head to fail to translate I think.

Honestly, I think Pedro was too emotional to close.    Same with Clemens, Johnson and a lot of the other guys who'd get themselves all jacked up to pitch. 

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 12:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
I think we know what Rivera was a starter.    No idea what Pedro would have been as a closer.  If you don't think it requires a different mindset, I don't know what to tell you.

Sure it takes a different mindset.  You only have to get three guys out and your team already has the lead.

But I don't think you can argue that Pedro didn't have the skill set to close.  We know Rivera didn't have the skill set to start.

I can argue that we don't know.

SP have a routine because they know they're pitching every 5th day.   Closers sit around, doing nothing for 7 innings, sometimes for days on end.   Pedro may have gotten fat on mangos in that role.   He may not have been able to throw 15 pitches and be ready to enter the game.    He might have lacked the mental focus to do nothing then enter a high pressure situation.

But I'm sure you know he could have done it.   I just don't know how you know this.

As a 21 year old, Pedro was a pretty darn good relief pitcher.  It's not much of a stretch to think that he would have been insanely dominant as a relief pitcher in his prime.  It would been a criminally stupid waste to use Pedro as a reliever, but he would have been good.

Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer.

I could argue that we don't know.   He hurt his arm and developed his cutter.   Maybe, without the arm injury, he's a fine starter.   Or, maybe, he never develops a cutter and is out of the league in 2 seasons.    My crystal ball is broken.  What does yours say?

"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Honestly, I think Pedro was too emotional to close.    Same with Clemens, Johnson and a lot of the other guys who'd get themselves all jacked up to pitch. 

Papelbon always seemed pretty jacked up when he came in but was a pretty effective closer.  And he obviously wasn't as talented as Pedro was.

To the best of my knowledge, Papelbon didn't drill batters to gain an edge. 

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?

Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?

Why are we fouling a thread about the GOAT Mariano Rivera, a man of the highest class, with discussion about a punk-*** like Pedro Martinez.

Pedro could have been fine as a closer, but he never would have wanted to do it and that would have had an effect on his output


part of his career success is based on the giant chip he had on his shoulder because Tommy Lasorda told him he was too fragile to start and that set up man was his future in the majors....


also, you don't get into the HOF based on what you could or could not do in other positions.....Mariano is a HOF lock in my mind, being the best at what he did.....whether he would have been a great starter has no bearing on anything

Well, Rivera also would have been a ****** OF.  That's gotta count against him, right?

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?

Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?

3100+ hits, a .314 career AVG, .384 career OBP.

Yes, those are HOF numbers despite the position.

yes, but Jeter would have probably been a mediocre starting pitcher, so I guess you have to leave him out of the Hall....

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?

Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?

zzzzzzzz who cares?  That's a stupid question that serves no purpose other than to derail.

He put up very good offensive numbers as a SS so he's in, how he would have done in a different role in an alternate reality is just mental masturbation that means nothing to the discussion at hand.