Posted by edsortails on 5/8/2012 1:16:00 PM (view original):
yes, but Jeter would have probably been a mediocre starting pitcher, so I guess you have to leave him out of the Hall....

I've missed your stunning wit, edso.

If Jeter was a starting pitcher, what would his FIP be?

I'm almost certain Jeter would have been an excellent starting pitcher.

He threw several no-hitters at age 12-13.   There's no reason to think he wouldn't have been an excellent pitcher had he stayed on the mound.

Posted by tecwrg on 5/8/2012 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?

Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?

3100+ hits, a .314 career AVG, .384 career OBP.

Yes, those are HOF numbers despite the position.

So you'd vote for Edgar Martinez?  He was a better offensive player than Jeter, hitting .312/.418/.515 over 8674 PA. 

(I would vote for Martinez, if it matters)

I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 5/8/2012 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
"Can we say that Rivera would have been anywhere near as dominant as a starter?  I don't think so.  Which is why Rivera is not an all time great, inner circle Hall of Famer."

This doesn't pertain to anything really because he had a valuable career without ever starting.  It's approximately as relevant as arguing that Jeter doesn't belong in the inner circle of the HoF because he couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher- who gives a ****?

Well it does matter.  Had Rivera been able to maintain the same rate stats in a starting role as opposed to relief, would you start him or leave him in the bullpen?

Regarding your analogy, if Jeter had been a DH, do his offensive stats make him a Hall of Famer?

zzzzzzzz who cares?  That's a stupid question that serves no purpose other than to derail.

He put up very good offensive numbers as a SS so he's in, how he would have done in a different role in an alternate reality is just mental masturbation that means nothing to the discussion at hand.

What???

Position matters.  Shortstop isn't a different role, it's where he stood on the field.  His offensive numbers wouldn't change if he couldn't field a ground ball, but his value relative all the other players in baseball would.

where is John Elway in this discussion?


he would have been awesome if he had played baseball.....

You know what else matters?  Reading comprehension!  You should try to become competent at it one of these days.

edit- try swapping "how he would have done" with "what his value would have been" and maybe it will make sense to you.

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.

He knew how to cut-off throws from the OF.

Manny Mota was the best pinch-hitter of all time.  Does that make him inner-circle HOF?


(Just thought I'd play a little devil's advocate)

Posted by jm1618 on 5/8/2012 1:36:00 PM (view original):
Manny Mota was the best pinch-hitter of all time.  Does that make him inner-circle HOF?


(Just thought I'd play a little devil's advocate)

Seriously.  Mota was awesome in his role.  GOAT.  Ted Williams was a great hitter but I don't think we can know one way or another if he could have mentally prepared himself enough to succeed in a pitch hitter role.  Totally different mindset.

I think before getting into DH discussions we need to decide whether Mariano's career would have been even better if Tim Tebow got in a time machine that sent him back to 1995 where he fortuitously became the Yankees' bench coach.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 1:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.

He knew how to cut-off throws from the OF.

This is why he'd probably be the best player of all time as a SS.  So let us anoint him as such!

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:34:00 PM (view original):
You know what else matters?  Reading comprehension!  You should try to become competent at it one of these days.

edit- try swapping "how he would have done" with "what his value would have been" and maybe it will make sense to you.

His value as a SS is significantly more than as a DH.  What position he played matters. 

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/8/2012 1:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deanod on 5/8/2012 1:26:00 PM (view original):
I think the better question is whether Manny Ramirez would have cut it as a HoFer as a SS.

He knew how to cut-off throws from the OF.

This is why he'd probably be the best player of all time as a SS.  So let us anoint him as such!

He couldn't play SS, but if he had been able to play even league average defense at SS, then yeah, he'd have a legitimate argument for inclusion in the top 4 or 5 position players of all time.