All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Poll: Best Shortstop Evah
6/11/2012 2:22 PM
1899_spiders
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/11/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by 1899_spiders on 6/10/2012 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Ranking players by position is very popular. There are examples all over the internet. And Ernie Banks is ranked as a shortstop on all I have seen. He played enough games at short to make ranking him there reasonable, and his performance at that position is what made him memorable. People think of Banks as a shortstop, not a first baseman. I agree with the_jsa that there needs to be a minimum number of games to keep things from getting out of hand, but once I get past that point, I'm going with my gut. It's similar to deciding which team to associate a player with. Eddie Collins played more games with the White Sox, but he was at his best with the Athletics. So I connect him with the Athletics.
If you're going to count Banks, you have to count Arod.  In that case, the top three are probably Wagner, Arod, & Ripken.  

With Banks, Vaughan, Jeter, Trammell, Smith, Larkin, Yount, and Appling filling out the rest of the top tenish SS of all time.
Agreed on A-Rod, and your top three. Are the rest in ranked order? I'd have to agree with the players, though I might order them differently.
6/11/2012 2:23 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/11/2012 2:18:00 PM (view original):
Vizquel??? Even in his best year he wasn't the league's best shortstop (or second best), he was never among the best players in the league, he was a good defensive shortstop with a below average bat. Nomar deserves to be on this list before Viquel.
At their best? Yes, Nomars better. But Vizquel also has a better glove and 1000 more hits.

I was also simply stating the player Mike was thinking of, not saying he should be on the list.
6/11/2012 2:23 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by jrd_x on 6/11/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by 1899_spiders on 6/10/2012 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Ranking players by position is very popular. There are examples all over the internet. And Ernie Banks is ranked as a shortstop on all I have seen. He played enough games at short to make ranking him there reasonable, and his performance at that position is what made him memorable. People think of Banks as a shortstop, not a first baseman. I agree with the_jsa that there needs to be a minimum number of games to keep things from getting out of hand, but once I get past that point, I'm going with my gut. It's similar to deciding which team to associate a player with. Eddie Collins played more games with the White Sox, but he was at his best with the Athletics. So I connect him with the Athletics.
If you're going to count Banks, you have to count Arod.  In that case, the top three are probably Wagner, Arod, & Ripken.  

With Banks, Vaughan, Jeter, Trammell, Smith, Larkin, Yount, and Appling filling out the rest of the top tenish SS of all time.
You don't get to tell everyone how they HAVE to do things.    Learn this valuable lesson.
6/11/2012 2:24 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 6/11/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 1:42:00 PM (view original):
I don't know who you could only list Jeter once.   That seems insane.

In no particular order(because that would be too much work and I'm just spitballing off the top of my head):

Jeter, Smith, Ripken, Wagner, Larkin. Boudreau(SLB stud), Banks(yeah, yeah, I contradict myself), Trammell.   I could stop here but that's only 8.   Pick 2 to finish it off:   Tony Fernandez, Larry Bowa, Pee Wee Reese, Luke Appling and, in an ode to the glove guy, Mark Belanger.   There's another guy, he played forever(and may still be playing) as a glove guy but I can't think of his name.
Vizquel
Yes, that's who I'm thinking of. 
6/11/2012 2:28 PM
MikeT23
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The reason I don't count A-Rod is two-fold.

1.  He's still playing and he won't go back to SS.   Thus he's going to finish his career with 1000 more games at 3B.
2.  I think he was well on his way to "growing" out of a SS body before coming to NY.  He knew it and that's why he said "Sure, I'll play 3B for the Yanks."   He wants the HR record not a SS glove. 
6/11/2012 2:28 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 2:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/11/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by 1899_spiders on 6/10/2012 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Ranking players by position is very popular. There are examples all over the internet. And Ernie Banks is ranked as a shortstop on all I have seen. He played enough games at short to make ranking him there reasonable, and his performance at that position is what made him memorable. People think of Banks as a shortstop, not a first baseman. I agree with the_jsa that there needs to be a minimum number of games to keep things from getting out of hand, but once I get past that point, I'm going with my gut. It's similar to deciding which team to associate a player with. Eddie Collins played more games with the White Sox, but he was at his best with the Athletics. So I connect him with the Athletics.
If you're going to count Banks, you have to count Arod.  In that case, the top three are probably Wagner, Arod, & Ripken.  

With Banks, Vaughan, Jeter, Trammell, Smith, Larkin, Yount, and Appling filling out the rest of the top tenish SS of all time.
You don't get to tell everyone how they HAVE to do things.    Learn this valuable lesson.
Mike, you don't HAVE to do anything, but if you include Banks, (I would too) you should also include ARod. Banks logged more innings away from SS, ARod hasn't even done this yet.
6/11/2012 2:30 PM
MikeT23
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Please see previous post. 
6/11/2012 2:34 PM
MikeT23
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Think of it in terms of Alfonso Soriano in 2007.   Not saying he'd be Top 5 2B but 2B that hit 30+ homers are pretty valuable.   LF who do that are leftfielders.    If, in 2007, one would have said "Name the top 5 current 2B", he would have been listed.   He just passed playing more games in LF than 2B.   He's not going back to 2B.  He's an OF.   
6/11/2012 2:36 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 2:28:00 PM (view original):
The reason I don't count A-Rod is two-fold.

1.  He's still playing and he won't go back to SS.   Thus he's going to finish his career with 1000 more games at 3B.
2.  I think he was well on his way to "growing" out of a SS body before coming to NY.  He knew it and that's why he said "Sure, I'll play 3B for the Yanks."   He wants the HR record not a SS glove. 
I know his contract runs through 2017 but a lot of that will be at DH I imagine (which I recognize is not still not SS), and this assumes he stays healthy and the Yankees continue to want to play him as he hits his 40s. I guess the answer is "we'll see."

I'm not sure the reason why he's no longer playing SS is relevant to whether he should be considered a SS when looking back at his career.
6/11/2012 2:37 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 6/11/2012 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Think of it in terms of Alfonso Soriano in 2007.   Not saying he'd be Top 5 2B but 2B that hit 30+ homers are pretty valuable.   LF who do that are leftfielders.    If, in 2007, one would have said "Name the top 5 current 2B", he would have been listed.   He just passed playing more games in LF than 2B.   He's not going back to 2B.  He's an OF.   
Same could have been said about Banks in his mid 30s.
6/11/2012 2:43 PM
MikeT23
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Well, when someone ceases playing a position at 28 years old, I think it's fair to speculate as to why. 

And, if you think the Yanks aren't going to play 40 y/o A-Rod while paying him 20m and approaching the HR record(which seems less likely now), I'd be curious to hear your reasoning.
6/11/2012 2:58 PM
burnsy483
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I don't know the reasons why Banks stopped playing SS, but I can imagine that he was getting older and it was something he couldn't handle long-term, or he was beginning to cost his team defensively. Or the Cubs wanted to preserve his bat long-term and didn't want him wearing down. Not far off from the reasons ARod isn't playing SS. And again, I don't know why this matters.

Players just aren't that good in their 40s. If ARod puts up .250/15/80 is that acceptable to the Yankees? If there's any team who can eat the money and not play ARod full-time, it's the Yankees.
6/11/2012 3:10 PM
MikeT23
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Banks moved after his 30th birthday.  I think it's safe to say that it wasn't because of some young stud SS needing a place to play.

It matters because we're discussing a player's body of work and trying to rank him at a position.  I've always thought of Banks as a SS thru reading and the like.  Had I been watching Cubs baseball in 1965(at the age of 2), I might be making the same argument for him being a 1B.

Posada hit .235 with 14 homers, threw a hissy fit and still got just under 400 PA at 39 for 13m.

6/11/2012 3:21 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by 1899_spiders on 6/11/2012 2:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 6/11/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by 1899_spiders on 6/10/2012 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Ranking players by position is very popular. There are examples all over the internet. And Ernie Banks is ranked as a shortstop on all I have seen. He played enough games at short to make ranking him there reasonable, and his performance at that position is what made him memorable. People think of Banks as a shortstop, not a first baseman. I agree with the_jsa that there needs to be a minimum number of games to keep things from getting out of hand, but once I get past that point, I'm going with my gut. It's similar to deciding which team to associate a player with. Eddie Collins played more games with the White Sox, but he was at his best with the Athletics. So I connect him with the Athletics.
If you're going to count Banks, you have to count Arod.  In that case, the top three are probably Wagner, Arod, & Ripken.  

With Banks, Vaughan, Jeter, Trammell, Smith, Larkin, Yount, and Appling filling out the rest of the top tenish SS of all time.
Agreed on A-Rod, and your top three. Are the rest in ranked order? I'd have to agree with the players, though I might order them differently.
That second group was in no particular order.

I think if we decide to count Banks, Arod, and Yount as SS, then Jeter clearly falls out of the top 5.
6/11/2012 3:27 PM
1899_spiders
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Let's not take "have to" literally. A-Rod as a shortstop is just an approach some take. Mike has a good argument for putting him at third. It's up to the person, as long as it's reasonable. For example, Honus Wagner did play second base, but only 57 games. Ranking him there is nutty. The only reason to keep things uniform in a positional ranking would if one were standardizing a collective ranking project.
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