Yeah, Maddux was a different pitcher in ATL.
ATL                    
2.63 ERA
0.5 HR9
1.4 BB9
6.5 K9

CHC
3.61
0.7
2.4
5.8

LA       
3.94
0.9
1.4
4.3

SD
4.07
0.8
1.3
4.7

Posted by Crump123 on 6/27/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):
I don't have a problem with FIP in and of itself, i think it can be useful for certain things, what i object to, is people using it to justify positions that it can't and doesn't support.

^^^^  This is correct.

Statistics are simply self-defining numbers.  What does ERA measure?  It measures how many earned runs a pitcher has given up pro-rated over a 9-inning game.  It doesn't measure how GOOD he was, it doesn't measure how LUCKY he was.

BABIP measures the batting average a pitcher has given up on balls put in play.  PERIOD.  It doesn't measure luck, skill, arm angle, location, temperature, or anything else.  Claiming that BABIP or FiP or ERA+ or shoe size indicates anything except a number or ratio is folly.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/28/2012 9:59:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, Maddux was a different pitcher in ATL.
ATL                    
2.63 ERA
0.5 HR9
1.4 BB9
6.5 K9

CHC
3.61
0.7
2.4
5.8

LA       
3.94
0.9
1.4
4.3

SD
4.07
0.8
1.3
4.7

Maddux also had an ERA that was better than his FIP almost every year he played for the Braves.

I also mentioned Mo Rivera before.  His FIP is more than half a run higher than his actual ERA.  If you watched him pitch, you'd understand why.

Interesting question about Maddux - his gap is wider for his Braves days.  I think it's about 0.30.  I looked at Smoltz, too, but it doesn't apply for him.

As for Rivera, I don't think it works the same for relievers.  I looked at a few closers and they had wider gaps than they typical starter.  I only looked at a few, though.

No, Glavine and Maddux were completely different types of pitchers than Smoltz. 

I think of Maddux and Glavine as being different.  I know Smoltz was more of a power guy but Glavine didn't have Maddux's control.  Smoltz' BB/9 are a little odd - something changed for him in 1996.  Overall, his BB/9 for his Atlanta time, even starter only, is lower than Glavine's.  I don't think power would explain the difference or we'd see that in other power/non-power matchups.  Or maybe we do see it but I don't know it.  I don't think so, though.

I'm not sure anyone I've seen had Maddux's control.  But I always viewed Maddux/Glavine at L/R doppelgangers.    Both walked pitches off the plate and changed speeds to get outs.   To me, they're perfect examples of location pitchers.

Leo Mazzone and Dave Duncan should be the first two "Pitching Coaches" elected to the Hall of Fame.

Posted by thejuice6 on 6/28/2012 10:39:00 PM (view original):

Leo Mazzone and Dave Duncan should be the first two "Pitching Coaches" elected to the Hall of Fame.

Johnny Sain and Mazzone.

From ESPN tonight:

Jeter, 38, may try to pursue 4,000 hits. His contract has one more season for $17 million, plus a player option for $8 million in 2014.

Any other shortstop ever be mentioned as possibly getting 4,000 hits?

This just occurred to me.   Anyone who watched the Braves in the 90s(and, if you watched the playoffs, you watched the Braves) wouldn't think Smoltz was even vaguely similar to Glavine/Maddux.   But you could see the similarities between Maddux/Glavine.   However, if you look at STATS, particularly BB9, you might not think they're all that similar either.  Maddux was obviously the superior pitcher but their style was very similar. 

"Similar style" is pretty generic, but I get that neither was overpowering and relied on changing speeds and on command.  That describes a lot of pitchers, though, even if most never achieve what Maddux and Glavine did, but still ignores the differences that do exist between the two.  Interestingly, Glavine's ERA "overperformance" vs. FIP is also evident outside the years he pitched for Atlanta. 

Perhaps they were better at changing speeds and hitting locations than most?

Perhaps.  There have to be others that still fit that description, though.  Glavine is still the interesting one to me.  Maddux could have posted a FIP of 3.20 and ERA of 1.00 and I wouldn't have batted an eye.  Glavine's got a good HR rate but below average strikeout and walk numbers.  Another area that Glavine is well above average in, and I'm sure this will excite you to no end, is Left On Base percentage.  LOB% and BABIP explain most of the difference between FIP and ERA (insert groans and eye rolls).  Normally, this is where I would explain that LOB% also fluctuates over time and usually regresses to league average and how there is still luck involved, etc.  BUT Glavine's LOB% numbers are above average pretty much every year, and he pitched a lot of years.  Some years they are significantly above average.  If Glavine pitched 1200 or 1500 innings, I would definitely chalk his FIP-ERA discrepancy up to mostly luck/random variation and not think twice about it.  Since he pitched over 4,000 innings and has a relatively wide difference, I won't go there.

Ohhh!!!  Statnerds would love it if I said "Maybe he was just clutch?"