All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP
9/20/2012 1:12 PM
Multi-year batting park factors for 2012: LAA = 92, DET = 103. Numbers are the same for single-year. Higher number means it is easier for the batter. That's why Trout is so close to Cabrera in OPS+, despite trailing by more than 60 points in OPS. And since OBP should be weighted more, and he only trails Cabrera by three points there, the unadjusted gap is closer. Trout is the league's best base stealer, and his fielding edge seems obvious, even if WAR is overrating him there. An acronymous uberstat is not necessary to make the Trout case.
9/20/2012 2:35 PM
They both are so valuable that they will be having golf dates come October 4th.










...well maybe Detroit has a chance.

9/27/2012 4:10 PM
The best solution for this ----- they tie for the MVP.  It happened in '79 when Willie Stargell and Keith Hernandez tied for the NL award.  I think the worst case scenario for Trout is that Cabrera wins the Hank Aaron award (which he deserves) AND the MVP, and Trout gets nothing.  Trout has been the best OVERALL player, but Cabrera the best hitter and is flirting with a triple crown.  I hate ties, but maybe (in this case) it's the best solution so both guys get the credit they deserve.
9/27/2012 5:14 PM
What? Miggy's D at 3B doesn't put him over the top? :)

Gotta admit, it's not been as bad as the prognosticators thought in the preseason.

9/27/2012 8:54 PM
Posted by mattedesa on 9/27/2012 5:14:00 PM (view original):
What? Miggy's D at 3B doesn't put him over the top? :)

Gotta admit, it's not been as bad as the prognosticators thought in the preseason.

- 0.2 so yeah, much better than I would have thought. He had a much worse defensive WAR at 1st base. Base-running is important but steals are overrated (IMO) so hopefully voters won't look at that too much. In any event, no doubt some voters made up their minds back in June. 
9/27/2012 8:58 PM
Posted by antoncresten on 9/19/2012 5:06:00 PM (view original):
CABRERA
HAMILTON
JETER
TROUT
KONERKO
JETER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9/27/2012 9:02 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 9/19/2012 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/19/2012 6:38:00 PM (view original):
The best player in the league is by definition the most valuable, regardless of how good his teammates are.
Depends how you interpret valuable. If you're just looking purely at the value of a player, I'd agree with you. If you're also looking at his value to his team, then that's not always the case.

If the Angels miss the playoffs, they would have done it with or without Trout. If the Tigers make it, I guarantee you they wouldn't have if Cabrera wasn't there. And vice versa if the Angels make it and the Tigers don't. Which is why I think it's a very easy decision if only one of those teams makes the playoffs.

As I said, making the playoffs isn't a prerequisite for winning the award. If neither the Angels or Tigers make it, Trout or Cabby will still win. But if two guys are close, playoffs are a legitimate tiebreaker.

FWIW, and it pains me to say it, jtpops makes some sense.

The objective is to win games and reach the post-season.    If one guy just demolishes the competition, it's not really an issue.   If it's close, it makes perfect sense to say "What do these teams do without those guys?"    If one sneaks into the playoffs and the other does not, why shouldn't the scale tilt toward the player on the team that actually accomplished a pre-season goal?


I feel dirty.

9/27/2012 9:25 PM
Posted by mitchrapp on 9/27/2012 8:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mattedesa on 9/27/2012 5:14:00 PM (view original):
What? Miggy's D at 3B doesn't put him over the top? :)

Gotta admit, it's not been as bad as the prognosticators thought in the preseason.

- 0.2 so yeah, much better than I would have thought. He had a much worse defensive WAR at 1st base. Base-running is important but steals are overrated (IMO) so hopefully voters won't look at that too much. In any event, no doubt some voters made up their minds back in June. 
Defensive WAR at first base is all screwed up.  Almost everyone has a negative career WAR at first base, even guys considered great defensive first basemen.  Sure, guys occasionally put together great seasons and get +, but it's pretty rare.  In fact, I wouldn't put too much quantitative stock on defensive WAR anywhere, but it works best at short, second, and third.  If you want to qualitatively say that Trout's defensive WAR suggests he's a better defender than Cabrera that's fine, the chasm is huge.  But eyes can tell you that same thing pretty easily.  UZR is a much more useful tool for defensive analysis IMO.  By miles.
9/27/2012 9:35 PM
If you're going to start letting your eyes tell you what you need to know, throw WAR, UZR, FYI and IMO out the goddam window.

Then ask yourself "Which guy would I rather have on my team this ******* year?"

That's Most Valuable.
9/28/2012 3:29 AM
Agreed.  Trout.
9/28/2012 11:50 AM
Yeah, it's pretty clear that Trout was the better player this year. He's almost as valuable as Cabrera on offense and easily much more valuable in the field and on base.
9/28/2012 1:10 PM
"Then ask yourself "Which guy would I rather have on my team this ******* year?"

That's Most Valuable."

LOL. I wish ballots included that as voting instructions, as it sums the whole thing up pretty nicely.
9/28/2012 7:10 PM
I haven't watched that large a proportion of Trout's or Cabrera's games this year, so to try to do it without considering some statistics would just be ridiculous.  This has always been the case, quite literally for as long as the award has existed.  You can't possibly answer it objectively based on what you see on the field when at best what most people saw in the field was maybe 20% of the guy's season.  Unless you're following one of their teams, but how many people followed both the Cardinals AND Tigers on an everyday basis this season?
9/28/2012 8:21 PM
Who said this?   "But eyes can tell you that same thing pretty easily."

You can't, well you can but that seems wrong, pick and choose which stats are bullshit for a specific position.     If you're going to tout "defensive WAR", you can't dismiss it for a different position in the next sentence.   It's either relevant or it isn't.  
9/28/2012 8:59 PM
When did I ever tout it?  Show me that.

You have to use statistics to help you out with your voting.  The eye test remains the best way to evaluate defense, but if you need to use a stat you use UZR.  I didn't say one contradictory thing.  I realize you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed, so maybe combining information from what you see yourself with the statistical evidence available and integrating them into a cohesive picture is too complicated for you.  The voting members of the BBWAA have demonstrated an understanding of the game that allows them to do that.
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All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP

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