All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP
10/4/2012 4:25 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:17:00 PM (view original):
How many MVPs did Rickey win?   I think he's great.  I think he's definitely top 25 of all-time.  I also think he won ONE MVP.   That's what we're talking about, right?



"Head and shoulders" shows your stupidity.   Keep repeating it.  Thanks in advance.
I don't doubt that writers in the 80's undervalued the skills that Henderson excelled at - OBP and base running. What point are you trying to make? Trout's historic season reminds you of Rickey Henderson so he shouldn't be voted MVP?

His season actually reminds me more of Barry Bonds' 1990 season. But Henderson's 1990 season wouldn't be a huge leap. Ryan Braun's 2011 is another good comp.
10/4/2012 4:26 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Rickey was a little bit of a compiler.  But he's had a season like Trout has had once, and yes, he won the MVP that year.  If you're comparing Trout's year to the year Rickey did what Trout did, then you're kind of arguing he should be MVP.

Edit: After further review, Rickey's season was better than Trout's the year he won MVP.  So my argument fails somewhat.

Well, you edited before I could respond but what the hell?

I'd argue that Rickey's '85 was more similar.  He came in 3rd.
10/4/2012 4:31 PM
Yes, BL, you're the only person, in the last 40 years, to put any value on OBP and baserunning.   You're a pioneer.

And you forgot to say "Head and shoulders".   Please don't forget next time.
10/4/2012 4:31 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Rickey was a little bit of a compiler.  But he's had a season like Trout has had once, and yes, he won the MVP that year.  If you're comparing Trout's year to the year Rickey did what Trout did, then you're kind of arguing he should be MVP.

Edit: After further review, Rickey's season was better than Trout's the year he won MVP.  So my argument fails somewhat.

Well, you edited before I could respond but what the hell?

I'd argue that Rickey's '85 was more similar.  He came in 3rd.
Yes I'm sorry I compared the 2.  Rickey was a monster in 1990.

It probably was.  And Mattingly was seen as the "centerpiece" on the team.  Check out the WARs on the link below.  We'd probably be having a similar discussion 17 years ago.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1985.shtml#ALmvp
10/4/2012 4:34 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:31:00 PM (view original):
Yes, BL, you're the only person, in the last 40 years, to put any value on OBP and baserunning.   You're a pioneer.

And you forgot to say "Head and shoulders".   Please don't forget next time.
You don't think voters didn't appreciate OBP? Bobby Bonilla finished second in 1990 with a .322 OBP. He wouldn't crack the top ten if they voted again today.

Head and shoulders. Check out the 1990 Bonds comp.
10/4/2012 4:37 PM
When looking at that, it's pretty apparent that WAR loves them some OBP.

And I actually agree.   The way to score is to get on base and move them around.   OBP, SLG and SB are ways to do that without recording an out. 

It's also pretty apparent that MVP voters loves them some RBI. 
10/4/2012 4:39 PM
BL, I know you don't want to hear it.  But the Pirates made the playoffs in 1990.  That's why Bonilla is that high...he was perceived as more valuable to the Pirates than the other candidates were to their teams.  

But I do think the 1990 Bonds comparison is also a fair one.  
10/4/2012 4:40 PM
Murray's 1990 WAR looks way off by comparison.  Is it because he didn't steal bases?

Does WAR love them some SB more than anything?
10/4/2012 4:42 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:40:00 PM (view original):
Murray's 1990 WAR looks way off by comparison.  Is it because he didn't steal bases?

Does WAR love them some SB more than anything?
WAR actually doesn't love SB that much, I don't think.  It probably has to do with his position - the replacement level player at 1B is probably a lot better offensively than he is in CF.  See Dykstra.
10/4/2012 4:43 PM
Yep, WAR is all about OBP and SB.  Look at 1990 Dykstra.  

WAR, IOW, is almost useless when attempting to compare players who steal to those who don't.  
10/4/2012 4:45 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 4:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:40:00 PM (view original):
Murray's 1990 WAR looks way off by comparison.  Is it because he didn't steal bases?

Does WAR love them some SB more than anything?
WAR actually doesn't love SB that much, I don't think.  It probably has to do with his position - the replacement level player at 1B is probably a lot better offensively than he is in CF.  See Dykstra.
This is what I've been getting at for the last 10 pages.

You can't even compare players at different positions.   An "up" year for 1B skews 1B for that season.   A "down" year for CF does the same.    If you have 3-4 great 2B in any given season, those 2B are "worth" less. 
10/4/2012 4:46 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 4:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:40:00 PM (view original):
Murray's 1990 WAR looks way off by comparison.  Is it because he didn't steal bases?

Does WAR love them some SB more than anything?
WAR actually doesn't love SB that much, I don't think.  It probably has to do with his position - the replacement level player at 1B is probably a lot better offensively than he is in CF.  See Dykstra.
This is what I've been getting at for the last 10 pages.

You can't even compare players at different positions.   An "up" year for 1B skews 1B for that season.   A "down" year for CF does the same.    If you have 3-4 great 2B in any given season, those 2B are "worth" less. 
The positional adjustment is constant and is the same for CF and 3B.
10/4/2012 4:46 PM
It was Chone Figgins being #5 in WAR in 2010(I think).    

Seriously?  Figgins?
10/4/2012 4:48 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 4:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:40:00 PM (view original):
Murray's 1990 WAR looks way off by comparison.  Is it because he didn't steal bases?

Does WAR love them some SB more than anything?
WAR actually doesn't love SB that much, I don't think.  It probably has to do with his position - the replacement level player at 1B is probably a lot better offensively than he is in CF.  See Dykstra.
This is what I've been getting at for the last 10 pages.

You can't even compare players at different positions.   An "up" year for 1B skews 1B for that season.   A "down" year for CF does the same.    If you have 3-4 great 2B in any given season, those 2B are "worth" less. 
I think this is true.  And I don't know if it's a bad thing.

Just a reminder - we determined that the positions of 3B and CF this year have the same "position bonus."
10/4/2012 4:49 PM
Sorry, 2009.

WAR Position Players  s c a p y
1. Pujols (STL) 9.4
2. Zobrist (TBR) 8.3
3. Utley (PHI) 8.0
4. Mauer (MIN) 7.6
5. Figgins (LAA) 7.5
6. Zimmerman (WSN) 7.1
  Ramirez (FLA) 7.1
8. Longoria (TBR) 6.7
9. Gonzalez (SDP) 6.6
10. Jeter (NYY) 6.4


This invalidates WAR altogether.   Figgins?   Chone ******* Figgins?  That's stupid.
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