All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot
12/2/2012 5:22 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/1/2012 9:00:00 AM (view original):
Yes or no for both is understandable.    No for BW and yes for EM is not.
Yes, it is. Bernie Williams was a good center fielder with an above average bat. Edgar Martinez was a DH with a much better bat. Williams' ability to play CF closes the gap a little in terms of overall value, but Martinez was still the more valuable player.
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12/2/2012 8:16 PM
If Williams and Martinez were comparable offensive players you'd be right. But they aren't. Martinez's OPS+ was over 20 points better than Williams'. Trout's OPS+ was a point or two better than Cabrera's in 2012.
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12/3/2012 9:56 AM
Going by the standards of 75% of the vote to be elected, we've got (as of right now):

Mike Piazza - 89%
Tim Raines - 83%
Craig Biggio - 78%

Others over 50%:

Edgar Martinez - 72%
Roger Clemens - 62%
Barry Bonds - 61%
Jeff Bagwell - 58%
Alan Trammell - 56%
Mark McGwire - 51%
12/3/2012 10:45 AM
Posted by antoncresten on 12/1/2012 9:48:00 AM (view original):
BERNIE IS A TERRIBLE NAME FER A DOG
Bernie is my dad's name!
12/3/2012 11:53 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2012 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Going by the standards of 75% of the vote to be elected, we've got (as of right now):

Mike Piazza - 89%
Tim Raines - 83%
Craig Biggio - 78%

Others over 50%:

Edgar Martinez - 72%
Roger Clemens - 62%
Barry Bonds - 61%
Jeff Bagwell - 58%
Alan Trammell - 56%
Mark McGwire - 51%
I'd be interested in hearing the argument against Bagwell.
12/3/2012 11:57 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2012 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2012 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Going by the standards of 75% of the vote to be elected, we've got (as of right now):

Mike Piazza - 89%
Tim Raines - 83%
Craig Biggio - 78%

Others over 50%:

Edgar Martinez - 72%
Roger Clemens - 62%
Barry Bonds - 61%
Jeff Bagwell - 58%
Alan Trammell - 56%
Mark McGwire - 51%
I'd be interested in hearing the argument against Bagwell.
Suspected 'roider.
12/3/2012 12:07 PM

If muddy were still here, he would use stronger language.

12/3/2012 12:33 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2012 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2012 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2012 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Going by the standards of 75% of the vote to be elected, we've got (as of right now):

Mike Piazza - 89%
Tim Raines - 83%
Craig Biggio - 78%

Others over 50%:

Edgar Martinez - 72%
Roger Clemens - 62%
Barry Bonds - 61%
Jeff Bagwell - 58%
Alan Trammell - 56%
Mark McGwire - 51%
I'd be interested in hearing the argument against Bagwell.
Suspected 'roider.
Based on what?
12/3/2012 12:43 PM
Eyeball test - both his appearance and the trajectory of his career numbers.  Not enough in my book (of course, confirmed 'roiding isn't necessarily enough for me either), but it's obviously caught on with a segment of the writer given his vote totals so far. 

I'm sure the fact that he didn't put up the eye-popping power numbers of some of his steroid era peers doesn't help either.
12/3/2012 12:56 PM
Seems odd that the argument against his inclusion in the hall is that he was a great hitter.
12/3/2012 1:31 PM
Not what I said.  His appearance (he got much bigger in his prime years, and then showed up notably smaller the year they started testing for real) and the trajectory of his numbers (he was a 15-20 HR guy for his first 3 years in the league and then blew up in the mid-90s, until he fell off a cliff at the end of his career).  Of course, before the steroid era, much of the numbers trajectory would have been considered consistent with the typical prime years for a player in terms of age.

It's obviously all circumstantial, but that's all you need from for many of the paranoid writers out there.
12/3/2012 1:43 PM
Al, the last sentence of your first paragraph summed up my point perfectly. His career trajectory would have looked like a player who hit his peak in his mid 20's and then saw his performance drop off quickly in his mid 30's. That's not really evidence of usage. I know you aren't arguing against him, I'm just expressing my shock that Bagwell wouldn't be elected by people in this forum.
12/3/2012 1:46 PM
I think that the appearance was primary and is what drove the overanalysis of his career trajectory. 

I honestly didn't pay that much attention myself to remember perosnally, but it does seem to be generally accepted fact that he was noticably smaller the first spring after testing went in for real.
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