All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > 2013 Hall of Fame Ballot
1/10/2013 10:34 PM
Are you saying Biggio was a superlative fielder and Bernie played 1B?
1/10/2013 11:00 PM
Are saying anything besides OPS+ matters in terms of valuing baseball players? That's all you offered in your previous post.
1/11/2013 7:58 AM
I know you're poking here Mike, but there's a good point in here. It's a shame that Bernie got so little support and will end up off the ballot.
1/11/2013 8:29 AM
Bernie was a very good player for the Yankees.

Not a Hall of Famer.  No tears should be shed if he falls off the ballot.
1/11/2013 8:37 AM
My point is Biggio was a compiler.  There's value in that but, as a player, would you take Biggio over Bernie?

Bernie became a full-time player in 1993.  He retired before the 2007 season.   In those seasons, how many times do you take Biggio over Bernie?   I'm obviously biased so I'll let someone else tell me.   But, in those 14 seasons, it seems like you'd have to think Biggio was the superior player in at least 8 to even have a case for Biggio-HOFer/Bernie-No way.

I can't think of one season, in his entire career, where I thought "Wow.  I'm looking at a future HOFer."   Not one.
1/11/2013 8:58 AM
Biggio is a compiler. It's really his only argument, but it's a good one - he compiled 3000 hits, which generally makes you a lock.

I was asked by a friend yesterday if I thought Al Oliver should be in the HOF. I said of course not. He then asked me to compare him to Biggio. They are very similar - the argument could be made that Oliver had a better career. The difference is about 300 hits. And yes, Biggio could steal bases.
1/11/2013 9:00 AM
It almost feels like if some of the people on these boards had the ultimate say on who should be in the HOF, the HOF gallery would have around 1500 plaques.  Which kind of cheapens the whole thing.

Tighter standards, not looser standards, are what needs to be adhered to.
1/11/2013 9:02 AM
Well tec, you do need 75%. Needs to be a vast majority.
1/11/2013 9:13 AM
My point was that some people on these boards are arguing in favor of good (not all-time great) players who they feel should be in the HOF.

Case in point: 6 people in this thread voted for Julio Franco.  JULIO FRANCO, IN THE HALL OF FAME???  Are you freakin' kidding me?
1/11/2013 9:14 AM
What kind of standards are being used if anybody thinks Julio Franco should have a plaque in the HOF gallery?
1/11/2013 9:15 AM
RACIST!
1/11/2013 9:15 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 1/11/2013 9:00:00 AM (view original):
It almost feels like if some of the people on these boards had the ultimate say on who should be in the HOF, the HOF gallery would have around 1500 plaques.  Which kind of cheapens the whole thing.

Tighter standards, not looser standards, are what needs to be adhered to.
Standards (other than the veterans committee) have been very tight. There are only 200 players in the hall vs the 10,000 or so that have been major leaguers. There are only a few players in that really don't belong (Rice, Perez, Hunter, Dawson, to name four). There are also only a few that really belong that didn't get voted in (Whitaker, Grich, since we're talking about 2nd basemen).

As time goes on it's reasonable that the hall grows. Guys like Biggio, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, and Trammell compare favorably to an average Hall of Famer (a high standard).
1/11/2013 9:17 AM
So, at this point, Bernie Williams, Al Oliver and Craig Biggio should be in the HOF?

Maybe the teams retire their numbers.   Maybe they put them in their personal team HOF.   None of them is an "all-time great". 
1/11/2013 12:18 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2013 8:37:00 AM (view original):
My point is Biggio was a compiler.  There's value in that but, as a player, would you take Biggio over Bernie?

Bernie became a full-time player in 1993.  He retired before the 2007 season.   In those seasons, how many times do you take Biggio over Bernie?   I'm obviously biased so I'll let someone else tell me.   But, in those 14 seasons, it seems like you'd have to think Biggio was the superior player in at least 8 to even have a case for Biggio-HOFer/Bernie-No way.

I can't think of one season, in his entire career, where I thought "Wow.  I'm looking at a future HOFer."   Not one.
I'll take you up on this. I haven't looked yet, but I will when I get into the office in a couple hours. I'll just edit this post with an answer.

EDIT:

So, was Biggio better than Williams?
 
Short answer, yes, but not by a huge amount. I think Williams, along with Lofton, should have received more consideration and it’s a shame they were dropped off the ballot. They’ve been Whitaker’d.
 
Biggio had a better peak than Williams, a 9+ win season in 1997, where you could argue that Biggio was the best player in the league. In terms of WAR, Williams’ best season would have been Biggio’s fourth. I don’t think you could make the argument that Williams was ever among the top two or three players in the league.

Williams had more value offensively over his shorter career, putting up 125 OPS+. Compared to Biggio, who put up a 112 OPS+. Defensively, Biggio was significantly more valuable. Though Williams won four Gold Gloves, he was about 150 defensive runs below average in center field. Biggio was about 67 runs below average, spending the majority of his career at second base. Biggio also had more value on the bases.
 
Comparing seasons directly, here are their eight best seasons by WAR, Biggio is better in all except one, their 5th best season, where they tie at 4.9.

Biggio:     9.3, 6.4, 6.2, 5.2, 4.9, 4.4, 4.2, 4.1
Williams: 6.1, 5.3, 5.1, 4.9, 4.9, 4.3, 3.8, 3.0
 
Career WAR for Biggio: 62.1, Williams: 45.9
 
Using Jay Jaffe’s JAWS score, Biggio lands at number 14 among second basemen at 51.3, just behind Roberto Alomar and just ahead of Chase Utley. Williams lands at number 27 among center fielders at 40.8, tied with Dale Murphy and just ahead of Brett Butler.
 
The ten most similar batters to Biggio according to Baseball Reference are:
 
Robin Yount
Derek Jeter
Joe Morgan
Paul Molitor
Roberto Alomar
Cal Ripken
Johnny Damon
Brooks Robinson
Lou Whitaker
George Brett
 
For Williams:

Paul O’Neill
Bob Johnson
Bobby Abreu
Bobby Bonilla
Will Clark
Carlos Beltran
Ellis Burks
Magglio Ordonez
Reggie Smith
Carlos Lee
1/11/2013 9:18 AM
I'l wait here. 
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