Wins and Losses Topic

Are there really people out there who think Brett Cecil was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010?

12/4/2012 4:19 PM
Has ANYONE said that?   Please quote the post.  Thanks in advance, you dumb bastard.
12/4/2012 4:21 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 3:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 
Then why use W/L?

If it doesn't tell you anything useful, why bother? There are a ton of better stats available to evaluate pitchers.
Jeez.  It does tell you something useful.   The pitcher was effective enough to stay on the mound and get the win.  The fat guy in the uniform, the one that knows more baseball than we'll ever know, decided to keep him out there.
Wouldn't ERA and IP tell you those things much much better than a W/L record?

If a pitcher goes 12-7. what kind of year did he have? Was it better than the guy that went 11-12?
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
12/4/2012 4:21 PM
Posted by jonas1102 on 12/4/2012 4:19:00 PM (view original):

Are there really people out there who think Brett Cecil was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010?

Are there really people out there that think Jason Vargas had a better year than Yu Darvish in 2012?
12/4/2012 4:28 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 3:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2012 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Conversely, pitchers can pitch well and get a loss or a no decision.    As I said, it all works out over the course of a season.   Much like getting WAR points in a loss. 
Then why use W/L?

If it doesn't tell you anything useful, why bother? There are a ton of better stats available to evaluate pitchers.
Jeez.  It does tell you something useful.   The pitcher was effective enough to stay on the mound and get the win.  The fat guy in the uniform, the one that knows more baseball than we'll ever know, decided to keep him out there.
Wouldn't ERA and IP tell you those things much much better than a W/L record?

If a pitcher goes 12-7. what kind of year did he have? Was it better than the guy that went 11-12?
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
The 11-12 guy was 2012 Peavy. The 12-7 guy was 2012 Holland.

W/L record is useless.
12/4/2012 4:35 PM
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
12/4/2012 4:36 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
I don't know. We would need more info and their W/L record isn't telling us anything.
12/4/2012 4:41 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
I don't know. We would need more info and their W/L record isn't telling us anything.
OK.  They each had 200 IP.  They each allowed 190 hits, walked 40, struck out 160, each allowed 25 homers.
12/4/2012 4:47 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jonas1102 on 12/4/2012 4:19:00 PM (view original):

Are there really people out there who think Brett Cecil was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010?

Are there really people out there that think Jason Vargas had a better year than Yu Darvish in 2012?
I assume you're going just off of ERA. Vargas pitched his home games in one of the best pitchers parks in baseball. Darvish pitched his home games in one of the best hitters parks. ERA+ for Vargas: 97. ERA+ for Darvish: 116.


12/4/2012 4:47 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
I don't know. We would need more info and their W/L record isn't telling us anything.
OK.  They each had 200 IP.  They each allowed 190 hits, walked 40, struck out 160, each allowed 25 homers.
The 11-12 guy then.

Given the same number innings and base runners, he allowed fewer runs to score.
12/4/2012 4:49 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jonas1102 on 12/4/2012 4:19:00 PM (view original):

Are there really people out there who think Brett Cecil was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010?

Are there really people out there that think Jason Vargas had a better year than Yu Darvish in 2012?
I assume you're going just off of ERA. Vargas pitched his home games in one of the best pitchers parks in baseball. Darvish pitched his home games in one of the best hitters parks. ERA+ for Vargas: 97. ERA+ for Darvish: 116.


I figured jonas was just going off wins.
12/4/2012 4:49 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jonas1102 on 12/4/2012 4:19:00 PM (view original):

Are there really people out there who think Brett Cecil was better than Felix Hernandez in 2010?

Are there really people out there that think Jason Vargas had a better year than Yu Darvish in 2012?
Since Darvish had an ERA+ of 116 and Vargas was 97+, I'm gonna have to go with no.
12/4/2012 4:54 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
I don't know. We would need more info and their W/L record isn't telling us anything.
OK.  They each had 200 IP.  They each allowed 190 hits, walked 40, struck out 160, each allowed 25 homers.
The 11-12 guy then.

Given the same number innings and base runners, he allowed fewer runs to score.
OK, I figured you'd go there.  This is what Mike means when he says you don't actually watch baseball.

Is it possible that the 12-7 pitcher is a veteran who understands managing a game.  In general, he tops out at 95, but doesn't really get there when he's given a 5-0 lead after 2 innings.  He understands he doesn't need his best stuff in this game, that he should pitch to contact, maintain his pitch count to save his bullpen, and cruise to his 7-4 win.  He's in a better position to pitch his next game, with less strain on his arm, and did what he needed to do to win the game.  In his next game, the offense isn't there.  He battles, tops out at 95 often, and wins a 1-0 game with a complete game shutout while throwing 120 pitches.

Is it possible the 11-12 pitcher is a 22-year old rookie who has great stuff, and given a 5-0 lead after 2 innings, continues to dominate and throws a complete game shutout in a 7-0 win, where he throws 120 pitches, throwing his best stuff all game.  Dominant performance.  The next game he's not quite as sharp, because he isn't recovered from his 120 pitch, max effort performance from his last start.  He pitches well, but not enough to win this game.  He loses 4-1.

Is this a possible scenario? 
12/4/2012 4:58 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 10:44:00 AM (view original):
To those who picked "worthless" - your team has a big game, and your options are 2 pitchers.  You have A) 14-14, 3.20 ERA or B) 20-8, 3.35 ERA.  Who are you picking?
Since you wouldn't know how many runs your team would score that day, common sense says to pick they guy who gave up fewer runs per 9IP over the course of the season.

What are you gonna do, pick the guy who gave up more runs because your team happened to score more runs on the days he pitched that year? Are you hoping your team will continue the anomoly of scoring more when a certain pitcher is on the mound? Are you going to make some bullshit rebuttal detailing how, even though he gave up more runs, he 'kept em in the close ones, did enough to get the win' yadda yadda yadda? If you want to isolate who to start based on their performance, you pick the guy who consistently gave up fewer runs. If one guy gave up more runs but had a dramatically better w-l record, as in this case, Captain Obvious says maybe teammates played a big role in the story.

W-L record is the least useful stat, by far, to evaluate a pitcher's performance. Even Mike's 'best case scenario' of a good w-l record from a guy on a bad team requires knowing more than his w-l record (ie, Mike's questions place the pitcher's w-l record in the context of his team's w-l record).

Closers routinely have crappy records, like 1-5 or 0-4. If you use w-l, you'd have to say they suck... but they might have went 46/50 in saves with a 0.95 ERA.

Take two guys who were 12-9, and who played on different teams in the same season. Who was better? You have zero idea. There is no way to tell from w-l record. Period. Using w-l only sheds exactly zero light on their performance, aside from stuff like, "He was probably not the worst pitcher in the history of MLB."

Any way you slice it, you need more info than w-l to evaluate a pitcher. In that sense, it has ZERO worth as a useful stat to evaluate performance. None. Zilch. Nada. No stat tells the whole story, but w-l tells nothing. If a guy went 12-12, was he good? Bad? Average? No way to tell.
12/4/2012 5:03 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):
If the 12-7 pitcher had a 3.90 ERA and the guy who went 11-12 had a 3.85 ERA....who was better?
I don't know. We would need more info and their W/L record isn't telling us anything.
OK.  They each had 200 IP.  They each allowed 190 hits, walked 40, struck out 160, each allowed 25 homers.
The 11-12 guy then.

Given the same number innings and base runners, he allowed fewer runs to score.
OK, I figured you'd go there.  This is what Mike means when he says you don't actually watch baseball.

Is it possible that the 12-7 pitcher is a veteran who understands managing a game.  In general, he tops out at 95, but doesn't really get there when he's given a 5-0 lead after 2 innings.  He understands he doesn't need his best stuff in this game, that he should pitch to contact, maintain his pitch count to save his bullpen, and cruise to his 7-4 win.  He's in a better position to pitch his next game, with less strain on his arm, and did what he needed to do to win the game.  In his next game, the offense isn't there.  He battles, tops out at 95 often, and wins a 1-0 game with a complete game shutout while throwing 120 pitches.

Is it possible the 11-12 pitcher is a 22-year old rookie who has great stuff, and given a 5-0 lead after 2 innings, continues to dominate and throws a complete game shutout in a 7-0 win, where he throws 120 pitches, throwing his best stuff all game.  Dominant performance.  The next game he's not quite as sharp, because he isn't recovered from his 120 pitch, max effort performance from his last start.  He pitches well, but not enough to win this game.  He loses 4-1.

Is this a possible scenario? 
They threw the same amount of innings, allowed the same amount of hits, walks, and homers, and struck out the same number of batters. One guy allowed fewer runners to score (by a small margin). They are essentially the same pitcher. Sure, your scenario is possible, but  W/L record certainly isn't telling us that story. The more likely explanation for the 1 win and 5 loss discrepancy is run support.

And either way, W/L record didn't tell us ****.
12/4/2012 5:06 PM
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