All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Wins and Losses
12/7/2012 1:07 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/6/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher A and Pitcher B are the same pitcher.  Do you see that?  They have the same stuff.  In one scenario, the pitcher is pitching in a smarter way, and it results in more wins.  There are many factors that goes into W-L record, so obviously I'm not going to assume that anyone who wins 20 games is better in high leverage situations.  But someone who does pitch better in those situations will win more games, possibly without a noticeable difference in other statistics.

Remember Tebowmania last year? Kyle Orton started the season and the team was bad.  Everybody played poorly, including the defense.  Tebow took over, and even though he was not a good QB, the team won games.  The running game was better, the defense was better...there was something about Tebow playing that seemed to result in more wins.  Maybe it was leadership? I don't know.  But he won games.  

If a pitcher accumulates wins, maybe its because he pitches well in high leverage situations.  Maybe it isn't.  I don't think Jack Morris should be in the Hall of Fame.  I know you posted research, but I did my own research in the past.  Morris has nearly the exact same numbers regardless of the situation.  He is Pitcher A.  But, he won games at a higher rate than most would expect.  Why? Could it be that Morris has a reputation as a bulldog, a grinder, and the offense is more confident, goes to bat (literally and figuratively) for him, plays great defense behind him, is more confident with him playing? There's obviously something more - his teams weren't always so fantastic that it would justify that winning percentage when his ERA+ was so ordinary.

A pitcher goes and takes the mound with the goal to win the game.  He feels he accomplishes his goal when he wins, not when he allows 2 runs over 8 innings.  So W-L record means SOMETHING.  It's part of the story.
Nevermind the last post, I don't care.  We aren't going to agree because I believe in the above.  The ability to win games.  I'm seen thousands of baseball games, and from Pedro Martinez on one end of the spectrum, to Mike Pelfrey on the other, there is a skill involved where a pitcher either pitches to the score, or motivates his teammates, or gives everyone adderall before a game to help them focus, i don't know.  But I believe that skill exists.  

The limited amount of organized baseball I've played also tells me that.  There are some pitchers who spend a full minute in between pitches, sulking around the mound, and say nothing to teammates during a game, that you don't enjoy playing behind.  And, there are pitchers who have similar skill who you are excited to play for.  Which team is more likely to win?

Kinda given up on the topic.  I know I'm not convincing you of anything.  But know that 92% of people who voted here disagree with you, and are completely retarded, braindead, and have an IQ of 17.
Great. I've been arguing with someone that believes in Santa Claus.
12/7/2012 1:17 PM
It must be that MLB has 'no brains' giving the pitcher the credit
for the WIN... Or for that mattter, -how dare they deem that any,
ANY pitcher have a LOSS designated 2 the actual game played.

Yeah, --->>> the W/L record should instead rest on the catchers
careers... That'd somehow be a better determination of how well
a pitcher perform'd... Right ??? The catcher call'd the game, so
now we all gotta' look differently @ (SP)WaJohnson... Right ???

Better yet, let's just write 2 the good folks @ MLB, & let 'em know
that it's been decided here @ WiS that all of us can benefit if MLB
would just give the WIN/LOSS record 2 the players who make the
defensive play-of-the-game, EACH game...

That way, we'd know how well a pitcher performed, because we
won't know if the play was bare-handed, assisted by a sea-gull in
flight, or involved stitches, or whatever... Yes, that's a barometer
4 measuring the performance of pitchers, -that we'd be left with...

There is no solution needed, except 2 reconsider your stance that
the WIN/LOSS record has value, -when ignored...

2 bad this post arrived 'mobile', & in "E-Speak"... &, if U think that
says more about me, rather than the subject of this forum, U will
be paying 4 alot more losses in the future, more so than any wins
U luck into by ignoring WON/LOSS statistics... It's folly, 4-sure...
12/7/2012 1:22 PM
Damn that's good. Are you going to let jsak get away with that burnsy? He's mocking the **** out of your argument.
12/7/2012 1:39 PM
JUGGALOSTEVE?
12/7/2012 1:49 PM (edited)
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Damn that's good. Are you going to let jsak get away with that burnsy? He's mocking the **** out of your argument.
This is about as ridiculous as the rest of your contentions...

IT'S YOU, bad_luck, who's being mocked above & through
out this entire thread, ---by many owners, as your continued
arguments AGAINST the W/L records for pitchers...

Show us "WHERE" the W/L record should be placed among
the other 8 on the field, ---or w/ management, ---or what ???

This is not an invite, but U have offered NO solutions that've
generated any type of spark around here... Just complaining
that the rest of us are "whack" for our views on W/L records.
12/7/2012 1:53 PM
Pitcher W/L shouldn't be placed with another player, it should be abolished. Teams get wins and losses.
12/7/2012 2:34 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/6/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher A and Pitcher B are the same pitcher.  Do you see that?  They have the same stuff.  In one scenario, the pitcher is pitching in a smarter way, and it results in more wins.  There are many factors that goes into W-L record, so obviously I'm not going to assume that anyone who wins 20 games is better in high leverage situations.  But someone who does pitch better in those situations will win more games, possibly without a noticeable difference in other statistics.

Remember Tebowmania last year? Kyle Orton started the season and the team was bad.  Everybody played poorly, including the defense.  Tebow took over, and even though he was not a good QB, the team won games.  The running game was better, the defense was better...there was something about Tebow playing that seemed to result in more wins.  Maybe it was leadership? I don't know.  But he won games.  

If a pitcher accumulates wins, maybe its because he pitches well in high leverage situations.  Maybe it isn't.  I don't think Jack Morris should be in the Hall of Fame.  I know you posted research, but I did my own research in the past.  Morris has nearly the exact same numbers regardless of the situation.  He is Pitcher A.  But, he won games at a higher rate than most would expect.  Why? Could it be that Morris has a reputation as a bulldog, a grinder, and the offense is more confident, goes to bat (literally and figuratively) for him, plays great defense behind him, is more confident with him playing? There's obviously something more - his teams weren't always so fantastic that it would justify that winning percentage when his ERA+ was so ordinary.

A pitcher goes and takes the mound with the goal to win the game.  He feels he accomplishes his goal when he wins, not when he allows 2 runs over 8 innings.  So W-L record means SOMETHING.  It's part of the story.
Nevermind the last post, I don't care.  We aren't going to agree because I believe in the above.  The ability to win games.  I'm seen thousands of baseball games, and from Pedro Martinez on one end of the spectrum, to Mike Pelfrey on the other, there is a skill involved where a pitcher either pitches to the score, or motivates his teammates, or gives everyone adderall before a game to help them focus, i don't know.  But I believe that skill exists.  

The limited amount of organized baseball I've played also tells me that.  There are some pitchers who spend a full minute in between pitches, sulking around the mound, and say nothing to teammates during a game, that you don't enjoy playing behind.  And, there are pitchers who have similar skill who you are excited to play for.  Which team is more likely to win?

Kinda given up on the topic.  I know I'm not convincing you of anything.  But know that 92% of people who voted here disagree with you, and are completely retarded, braindead, and have an IQ of 17.
Great. I've been arguing with someone that believes in Santa Claus.
Wait....hes NOT REAL?!?!?!?
12/7/2012 2:57 PM
Posted by jsakicno19 on 12/7/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Damn that's good. Are you going to let jsak get away with that burnsy? He's mocking the **** out of your argument.
This is about as ridiculous as the rest of your contentions...

IT'S YOU, bad_luck, who's being mocked above & through
out this entire thread, ---by many owners, as your continued
arguments AGAINST the W/L records for pitchers...

Show us "WHERE" the W/L record should be placed among
the other 8 on the field, ---or w/ management, ---or what ???

This is not an invite, but U have offered NO solutions that've
generated any type of spark around here... Just complaining
that the rest of us are "whack" for our views on W/L records.
HA!

bad_luck has his head so far up his *** that he can't even tell when it's him that's being mocked.
12/7/2012 3:47 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 1:53:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher W/L shouldn't be placed with another player, it should be abolished. Teams get wins and losses.
Then ( ...@ last... ), U now have the perfect 'exit' strategy
to both this forum, & your nagging pursuit of 'wins' here...

Go slam that 130-ish 'game-winning' Cleveland T-E-A-M
into every open & theme league that U possibly can, -&-,
watch the wins pile-up... Sky-high totals in the 'W' column,
4-sure, because it's the T-E-A-M w/ the most wins, right ?

Whatever U do, ---don't come back 2 this thread, typing &
letting us know of the 'gold-mine' win theories of yours...

Pitchers, & their real life W/L totals, have every sound -&-
rational basis for statistical prominence, ---as does every
goalie in hockey, who also built seasons of great careers
wherein the W/L records were admired on a taller podium
than dang near ALL other statistics...

Got nothing other than a refusal to ignore the wisdom of the
guys in charge back in the 1800's, & those in charge during
the 1900's, as well as those in charge now, who maintain a
''Staus-Quo'' about the W/L records, yearly...

This ain't football, or basketball, where a player gets a type of
statistical credit for a 'Win'... This is baseball, the ONLY game
where the defense starts the play w/ the ball... That does NOT
even happen in a game with a puck... In that situation, U gotta'
think differently about the pitcher...

The ONLY baseball team that matters in any league, is the only
team that will win the only game that will matter most, -their last,
& all other teams will LOSE their last game of that season here,
so, --- get every owner 2 pick the team w/ the most T-E-A-M wins,
& U will still have absolutely nothing, ---except for your blindness. 
12/7/2012 4:19 PM
What does that even mean???

Burnsy...that guy is arguing for your side. Does that make you want to rethink your position?
12/7/2012 4:19 PM
It's like if swamp suddenly popped up in this thread and was trying to back me up. That would be horrifying and I would immediately question my thought process.
12/7/2012 4:21 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/7/2012 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jsakicno19 on 12/7/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Damn that's good. Are you going to let jsak get away with that burnsy? He's mocking the **** out of your argument.
This is about as ridiculous as the rest of your contentions...

IT'S YOU, bad_luck, who's being mocked above & through
out this entire thread, ---by many owners, as your continued
arguments AGAINST the W/L records for pitchers...

Show us "WHERE" the W/L record should be placed among
the other 8 on the field, ---or w/ management, ---or what ???

This is not an invite, but U have offered NO solutions that've
generated any type of spark around here... Just complaining
that the rest of us are "whack" for our views on W/L records.
HA!

bad_luck has his head so far up his *** that he can't even tell when it's him that's being mocked.
Do I have to explain that I was mocking jsak??? Or are you just arguing in bad faith again.

You really are only 14, aren't you?
12/7/2012 5:10 PM
No way a 14-year-old could afford all those HBD seasons.
12/7/2012 5:11 PM
Particularly without ever actually winning.
12/7/2012 5:46 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 4:20:00 PM (view original):
It's like if swamp suddenly popped up in this thread and was trying to back me up. That would be horrifying and I would immediately question my thought process.
If you'd stop and question your thought process now, this thread would end.   I'll help.

1.  W/L does not tell the whole story but it says something.  Career leaders in W are pretty good as are the guys who win 20 in a season.
2.  There are better stats to determine a pitcher's effectiveness but that doesn't mean W/L is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS!!
3.  Well, there is no 3.   You've just been arguing to argue, I hope.  And I also hope that these last 9 pages, when I pulled myself out, has been others doing the same.
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