8/7/2013 6:35 PM
Then why do you argue for the Kenny Loftons of the world?
8/7/2013 7:10 PM
I only argued that Lofton should get consideration. I think he's borderline but a better candidate than Adam Dunn.
8/7/2013 7:16 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/7/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):
You're using Colin cowherd "fame" argument? The hall of fame is for the best players, not the most famous.

I guess they didn't know what they were doing when they named it, eh?
8/7/2013 7:20 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/7/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):
You're using Colin cowherd "fame" argument? The hall of fame is for the best players, not the most famous.

Just because you want it to be "... for the best the best players, not the most famous" doesn't mean it is.  Its not the "Hall of the Best Baseball Players" or the "Hall of Elite Baseball Players", its the "Hall of Fame".  A player's life and contributions to the game outside of their statistics are germane to their HOF consideration. 
That's why, in spite of the objections of some on this site, Ichiro is going to cruise on into the HOF, with very little debate.  If he was just another American ball-player, or even Dominican, it wouldn't be that clear-cut, but he was the most famous baseball player in the world for a good bit of his career, and was the first Japanese player to make a significant splash in MLB (beyond one good year, and some ok years like Nomo, etc.) 
8/7/2013 7:54 PM
Posted by kcden on 8/7/2013 7:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/7/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):
You're using Colin cowherd "fame" argument? The hall of fame is for the best players, not the most famous.

Just because you want it to be "... for the best the best players, not the most famous" doesn't mean it is.  Its not the "Hall of the Best Baseball Players" or the "Hall of Elite Baseball Players", its the "Hall of Fame".  A player's life and contributions to the game outside of their statistics are germane to their HOF consideration. 
That's why, in spite of the objections of some on this site, Ichiro is going to cruise on into the HOF, with very little debate.  If he was just another American ball-player, or even Dominican, it wouldn't be that clear-cut, but he was the most famous baseball player in the world for a good bit of his career, and was the first Japanese player to make a significant splash in MLB (beyond one good year, and some ok years like Nomo, etc.) 
Why was Ichiro famous? Because he was a great baseball player.

Jose Conseco is also very, very famous. I'll look for his plaque next time I'm in Cooperstown.
8/7/2013 8:00 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/7/2013 7:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcden on 8/7/2013 7:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/7/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):
You're using Colin cowherd "fame" argument? The hall of fame is for the best players, not the most famous.

Just because you want it to be "... for the best the best players, not the most famous" doesn't mean it is.  Its not the "Hall of the Best Baseball Players" or the "Hall of Elite Baseball Players", its the "Hall of Fame".  A player's life and contributions to the game outside of their statistics are germane to their HOF consideration. 
That's why, in spite of the objections of some on this site, Ichiro is going to cruise on into the HOF, with very little debate.  If he was just another American ball-player, or even Dominican, it wouldn't be that clear-cut, but he was the most famous baseball player in the world for a good bit of his career, and was the first Japanese player to make a significant splash in MLB (beyond one good year, and some ok years like Nomo, etc.) 
Why was Ichiro famous? Because he was a great baseball player.

Jose Conseco is also very, very famous. I'll look for his plaque next time I'm in Cooperstown.
Infamous and famous are not the same thing, and obviously fame is not the only criteria for entrance to the HOF, but excellent use of reductio ad absurdum. 
A-Rod, Bonds, Clemens are all going to struggle to get in (if they ever get in), in spite of the fact that they were three of the best players of all-time (on the "best" players short-list) because of their infammy.
8/7/2013 10:14 PM
The only way a player like Dunn would get in the hall is with the help of modern sabremetrics that show that a high OBP and SLG are valuable even if the AVG is low, but as someone pointed out, those same modern statistcs show how terrible his defensive value is so he's a hopeless case. The nerds don't like him, nor the old school 'batting average is king' folks.
8/8/2013 3:40 AM
I like Dunn.  It's not his fault it took so long for him to get into the AL...

What I'm sure is frustrating for fans of his teams is his inability to cut down his swing with 2 strikes.  It's one thing as a general philosophy of hitting.  I get it.  It's arguably the right way to go.  Soft contact in many situations is no worse than a K, even if it does look better.  But with 1 out and a man on 3rd?  Dunn is not the guy you want at the plate.  I got to watch 2 years of that with Mark Reynolds.  Bases empty go for it.  But you have to cut down in clear-cut RBI situations.  Davis and Cabrera aren't just 1-2 in RBI's because they're 1-2 in HRs and 9-1 in average.  They're also 2-1 in ARISP.  Their contact rates both rise in those situations - Davis's substantially so.  Davis's has a lot more room to improve.  But again, I'm much more willing to live with big strikeouts if you show the ability to hit for contact when the situation calls for it.
8/8/2013 7:04 AM
That's pretty similar to "Why don't they bunt against the shift?" argument.   These power guys have hit one way their entire life.   It's just not as easy, against the best pitchers in the world, to say "I'll just do this instead" as you think.
8/10/2013 2:56 PM
Why? Are they not professional ballplayers? It should not be hard for a guy to learn to throttle back a bit with 2 strikes and just focus on putting bat on ball.
8/10/2013 3:03 PM
It's not a degree of difficulty issue, it's an attitude issue.
8/11/2013 9:07 AM
Have either of you ever picked up a bat?
8/11/2013 9:34 AM
LAST TIME I WAS IN A BAR BRAWL
8/12/2013 1:43 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 8/10/2013 3:03:00 PM (view original):
It's not a degree of difficulty issue, it's an attitude issue.
I disagree.

Dunn is/was really only good at two things: hitting for power and drawing walks.

Asking him to throttle back just to avoid strikeouts is counter productive. Yes, he'll strikeout at times when a ground ball would have scored a run, but you'll also get the home runs and deep fly balls that you would have lost by Dunn cutting down on his swing. An out is an out, it's better not to get too caught up in strikeouts.
8/12/2013 4:10 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/11/2013 9:07:00 AM (view original):
Have either of you ever picked up a bat?
Yes, have you?

I never really could hit, I could pitch.  And I know I loved pitching to the HS equivalent of Adam Dunn with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 out.

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