All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Mike Trout turned 22 yesterday.
8/8/2013 5:06 PM
Yea, it's like Trout's getting **** on because he was batting 1st in the Angels lineup for much of the season.  Not his fault people aren't on base when he's hitting doubles and ****.
8/8/2013 5:07 PM
Yea, and FWIW, Trout led the league in runs last year.
8/8/2013 5:12 PM
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Those are full season numbers for an everyday middle infielder.  That is the margin by which Miggy eclipsed Trout in hrs and ribs.  Again, if Trout had played more games perhaps the numbers wouldve reflected differently.  Perhaps Trout would've hit subpar those 25 ish games he missed.  Perhaps he wouldve channelled Josh Gibson and approached Miggy slugging exploits given those 25 games back.  Both are reasonable.  Thing is with Miggy- there is no "perhaps". 

This isn't 1984. We tend to measure offensive performance with more than just HR and RBI nowadays.
8/8/2013 5:37 PM
Yet, shockingly, Cabrera won the MVP.
8/8/2013 5:43 PM
Not really that shocking when you look at the membership rolls of the BBWAA.
8/8/2013 6:30 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 5:37:00 PM (view original):
Yet, shockingly, Cabrera won the MVP.
Lots of guys who go OOOOO TRIPLE CROWN!
8/8/2013 6:37 PM
I think some people define "valuable" differently.

Again, the objective of the game is to win.   If you win enough, you get to play more than 162.   Trout led his team to a 162 game season.  Yay.
8/8/2013 6:38 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 6:37:00 PM (view original):
I think some people define "valuable" differently.

Again, the objective of the game is to win.   If you win enough, you get to play more than 162.   Trout led his team to a 162 game season.  Yay.
The Angels won more games than the Tigers.
8/8/2013 6:51 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2013 6:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 6:37:00 PM (view original):
I think some people define "valuable" differently.

Again, the objective of the game is to win.   If you win enough, you get to play more than 162.   Trout led his team to a 162 game season.  Yay.
The Angels won more games than the Tigers.
The Angels failed to make the post-season.     Do you need a link?
8/8/2013 6:54 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 6:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2013 6:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 6:37:00 PM (view original):
I think some people define "valuable" differently.

Again, the objective of the game is to win.   If you win enough, you get to play more than 162.   Trout led his team to a 162 game season.  Yay.
The Angels won more games than the Tigers.
The Angels failed to make the post-season.     Do you need a link?
Do you need a brain?

The Angels won more games than the Tigers. Not only are you saying player X is individually better than player Y because of the performances of their respective teammates, you're going a step further and saying that player X is individually better than player Y because of the performances of the players on the teams in each of their divisions.

The stupidest pro-Cabrera argument available.
8/8/2013 6:58 PM
Are the Tigers and the Angels in the same division?

Do you need a link?
8/8/2013 7:00 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 6:58:00 PM (view original):
Are the Tigers and the Angels in the same division?

Do you need a link?
"In each of their divisions."
8/8/2013 7:14 PM
I don't even know what you're getting at.  Therefore, I'll tell you what I'm getting at.    Have you ever noticed that teams in the playoffs, who can't improve their position, tend to play a bunch of call-ups? 

Do you even watch baseball?   Or does DWAR and FIP tell you everything you need to know?
8/8/2013 7:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 7:14:00 PM (view original):
I don't even know what you're getting at.  Therefore, I'll tell you what I'm getting at.    Have you ever noticed that teams in the playoffs, who can't improve their position, tend to play a bunch of call-ups? 

Do you even watch baseball?   Or does DWAR and FIP tell you everything you need to know?
And that makes Cabrera's 2012 better than Trout's?
8/8/2013 9:16 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2013 4:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
miggy had a slightly better average and



14 more homers and 57 more rbi.  14, 57.
The HR are absolutely relevant. The RBI, not so much.


I had just written up a long response to this post, but unfortunately I was an idiot and changed pages without submitting it first.  The crux of it is that while the oldschool guys overrate RBI, the pure stat guys massively underrate them.  Trout had a slightly lower AVG and slightly higher K rate with RISP than he did with the bases empty.  Very close, insignificantly far off, really, but still there.  And reflected in similar slight declines in contact rate and AVG this year in RISP situations.  Also statistically insignificant, if anything possibly a reflection of pitchers bearing down a bit harder with RISP.

But Cabrera's AVG increases with RISP and his K-rate declines, both in 2012 as well as 2011 and this season.  The guy knows how to shorten his swing to make solid contact and drive in runs when he doesn't need XBH to cash in.  Obviously the exact scenarios are not identical, but if we assume they average to similar over the course of a season, it's worth noting that Trout drove in .47 runs per AB with RISP, while Miggy drove in .51.

Yes, to a great extent RBI are a team stat.  But Cabrera has a particular skill/talent for driving in runs when he has the opportunities to do so.  At this point in his career, Trout has not developed that skill.  Maybe he will, maybe he won't.  But for 2012, RBIs, or at least performance in RBI opportunities, is absolutely germane to the MVP discussion.
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