All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Mike Trout turned 22 yesterday.
8/8/2013 9:59 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2013 5:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Those are full season numbers for an everyday middle infielder.  That is the margin by which Miggy eclipsed Trout in hrs and ribs.  Again, if Trout had played more games perhaps the numbers wouldve reflected differently.  Perhaps Trout would've hit subpar those 25 ish games he missed.  Perhaps he wouldve channelled Josh Gibson and approached Miggy slugging exploits given those 25 games back.  Both are reasonable.  Thing is with Miggy- there is no "perhaps". 

This isn't 1984. We tend to measure offensive performance with more than just HR and RBI nowadays.

You either missed the point entirely or are just avoiding it for benefit of your argument.

Trout was worth significantly less runs created because he wasn't in there as much as Cabrera.

Thus Cabrera amassed a greater volume of runs created.

Therefore Cabrera was more valuable.

Perhaps Trout could've been as valuable given the same amount of PA's as Cabrera, or if could've slumped.  Players, even great ones have prolonged slumps from time to time. 

Point is the numbers that are chalked favor Cabrera. 

8/8/2013 10:02 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/8/2013 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Yea, it's like Trout's getting **** on because he was batting 1st in the Angels lineup for much of the season.  Not his fault people aren't on base when he's hitting doubles and ****.

No, it was more a point that Cabrera created more runs than Trout.

8/8/2013 10:11 PM
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 10:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/8/2013 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Yea, it's like Trout's getting **** on because he was batting 1st in the Angels lineup for much of the season.  Not his fault people aren't on base when he's hitting doubles and ****.

No, it was more a point that Cabrera created more runs than Trout.

Does scoring runs count as "creating runs?"
8/8/2013 10:29 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/8/2013 10:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 10:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/8/2013 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Yea, it's like Trout's getting **** on because he was batting 1st in the Angels lineup for much of the season.  Not his fault people aren't on base when he's hitting doubles and ****.

No, it was more a point that Cabrera created more runs than Trout.

Does scoring runs count as "creating runs?"
Oh I factored that in chief.

rs+rbi

miggy- 248
trout- 212

8/8/2013 10:32 PM
if you even did trout the "justice" of prorating his rbi+rs to 162 games know what his total would've been?  247

still less than cabrera in 161 games.


but you don't vote for mvp with made up numbers anyways.
8/8/2013 10:33 PM
hey given trouts value on defense, which im not discounting, had trout played as many games as miggy id've voted for trout.
8/8/2013 11:15 PM
Back on topic...



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8/9/2013 8:07 AM
Posted by dahsdebater on 8/8/2013 9:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2013 4:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
miggy had a slightly better average and



14 more homers and 57 more rbi.  14, 57.
The HR are absolutely relevant. The RBI, not so much.


I had just written up a long response to this post, but unfortunately I was an idiot and changed pages without submitting it first.  The crux of it is that while the oldschool guys overrate RBI, the pure stat guys massively underrate them.  Trout had a slightly lower AVG and slightly higher K rate with RISP than he did with the bases empty.  Very close, insignificantly far off, really, but still there.  And reflected in similar slight declines in contact rate and AVG this year in RISP situations.  Also statistically insignificant, if anything possibly a reflection of pitchers bearing down a bit harder with RISP.

But Cabrera's AVG increases with RISP and his K-rate declines, both in 2012 as well as 2011 and this season.  The guy knows how to shorten his swing to make solid contact and drive in runs when he doesn't need XBH to cash in.  Obviously the exact scenarios are not identical, but if we assume they average to similar over the course of a season, it's worth noting that Trout drove in .47 runs per AB with RISP, while Miggy drove in .51.

Yes, to a great extent RBI are a team stat.  But Cabrera has a particular skill/talent for driving in runs when he has the opportunities to do so.  At this point in his career, Trout has not developed that skill.  Maybe he will, maybe he won't.  But for 2012, RBIs, or at least performance in RBI opportunities, is absolutely germane to the MVP discussion.
And this wasn't long?
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8/9/2013 8:29 AM
All post have the same girth, Tonto.
8/9/2013 9:42 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/8/2013 7:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2013 7:14:00 PM (view original):
I don't even know what you're getting at.  Therefore, I'll tell you what I'm getting at.    Have you ever noticed that teams in the playoffs, who can't improve their position, tend to play a bunch of call-ups? 

Do you even watch baseball?   Or does DWAR and FIP tell you everything you need to know?
And that makes Cabrera's 2012 better than Trout's?
Did you ever answer this?
8/9/2013 9:58 AM
I got bored.  I bumped the other thread which fully explains why Cabrera had a better 2012. 

But that particular post was meant to explain how teams, with their post-season seed determined, will rest players.   This will allow lesser teams, and teams still trying to reach the post-season/improve their seed, to win more games than they do.     Want a link to last season's final standings?  That said, would you like to field either of these?

Do you even watch baseball?   Or does DWAR and FIP tell you everything you need to know?
8/9/2013 9:59 AM
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 10:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/8/2013 10:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by arvidjosef on 8/8/2013 10:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/8/2013 5:06:00 PM (view original):
Yea, it's like Trout's getting **** on because he was batting 1st in the Angels lineup for much of the season.  Not his fault people aren't on base when he's hitting doubles and ****.

No, it was more a point that Cabrera created more runs than Trout.

Does scoring runs count as "creating runs?"
Oh I factored that in chief.

rs+rbi

miggy- 248
trout- 212

To make the old fashioned runs created formula valid in any way you have to subtract HR's since you are credited with a run scored and an RBi when you score but the team is only credited with 1 run.  RS + RBI's - HR's

  That said. He won the ******* triple crown for god sakes. Only 14 other players have ever done that and it's only been done 16 time in the entire history of the Major Leagues. Anybody who didn't vote for him was a tard.
8/9/2013 10:05 AM
i hear ya.  i knew there was a standard, accordnig to hoyle, runs created formula, i was just spitballing
8/9/2013 10:11 AM
You have to be old to know that formula. Been a long time since I heard anybody quote it.
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