All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Cabrera won MVP
11/18/2013 1:41 PM
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
11/18/2013 1:42 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:23:00 PM (view original):
This whole argument is besides the point.  Bourjos kinda sucks, I'm confused why this side of the argument has continued in the first place.
It is beside the point.

The available replacement doesn't matter when deciding MVP awards.

 
For those who see it as "value to the team," it could.  If you still understand that argument.
But we're talking past tense. His production for 2013 is already decided. He wasn't replaced. Did Cabrera, in his 650 plate appearances and 1200 innings in the field, produce more than anyone else in the league?

The only reason I mentioned team production is in my argument that Trout produced more. That hypothetical team with Trout's production wins more games than hypothetical team with Cabrera's production. But that's certainly debatable.

 
Who is more valuable - the catcher who puts up .300/.400/.500 or the 1st baseman who puts up .310/.410/.530?

Why?

 
If I had to guess, probably the catcher.
Did you miss the "why" part?
11/18/2013 1:43 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
11/18/2013 1:45 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:23:00 PM (view original):
This whole argument is besides the point.  Bourjos kinda sucks, I'm confused why this side of the argument has continued in the first place.
It is beside the point.

The available replacement doesn't matter when deciding MVP awards.

 
For those who see it as "value to the team," it could.  If you still understand that argument.
But we're talking past tense. His production for 2013 is already decided. He wasn't replaced. Did Cabrera, in his 650 plate appearances and 1200 innings in the field, produce more than anyone else in the league?

The only reason I mentioned team production is in my argument that Trout produced more. That hypothetical team with Trout's production wins more games than hypothetical team with Cabrera's production. But that's certainly debatable.

 
Who is more valuable - the catcher who puts up .300/.400/.500 or the 1st baseman who puts up .310/.410/.530?

Why?

 
If I had to guess, probably the catcher.
Did you miss the "why" part?
How am I supposed to give you a realistic why answer?

I know nothing about them other than their positions and triple slash. Did the catcher only play 60 games? Is he a complete shitbag defensively? Assuming a full season from both and average defense, a catcher that can do that is harder to find than a first baseman hitting 310/410/530. So he has more value.

 
11/18/2013 1:48 PM
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
11/18/2013 1:48 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
So you're telling me that position doesn't matter?   That a DH with an OPS of .900 is just as valuable as a 3B with an OPS of .900?
11/18/2013 1:59 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
So you're telling me that position doesn't matter?   That a DH with an OPS of .900 is just as valuable as a 3B with an OPS of .900?
I didn't say that.

I said that Cabrera, because he's a very bad defensive third baseman and only slightly below average at first base, doesn't lose much value moving over.

The reason for this is that he gives away so many runs at third that the negative positional adjustment is almost wiped away by the runs he isn't giving away at first.


 
11/18/2013 1:59 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
11/18/2013 2:04 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
You're saying that despite the catcher's inferior offensive numbers, he's more valuable than the 1st baseman, because he's harder to replace, even if there's a replacement for him that's just as good on the bench.  Yes?
11/18/2013 2:05 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
You're saying that despite the catcher's inferior offensive numbers, he's more valuable than the 1st baseman, because he's harder to replace, even if there's a replacement for him that's just as good on the bench.  Yes?
Yes
11/18/2013 2:07 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
So you're telling me that position doesn't matter?   That a DH with an OPS of .900 is just as valuable as a 3B with an OPS of .900?
I didn't say that.

I said that Cabrera, because he's a very bad defensive third baseman and only slightly below average at first base, doesn't lose much value moving over.

The reason for this is that he gives away so many runs at third that the negative positional adjustment is almost wiped away by the runs he isn't giving away at first.


 
"doesn't lose much value"

But he loses some, right?    Wouldn't that make him LESS valuable?
11/18/2013 2:07 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
You're saying that despite the catcher's inferior offensive numbers, he's more valuable than the 1st baseman, because he's harder to replace, even if there's a replacement for him that's just as good on the bench.  Yes?
Yes
How many times were you hit over the head with a hammer this morning?
11/18/2013 2:08 PM
harder to replace, even if it's not harder to replace.  You can't make this **** up.
11/18/2013 2:08 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
So you're telling me that position doesn't matter?   That a DH with an OPS of .900 is just as valuable as a 3B with an OPS of .900?
I didn't say that.

I said that Cabrera, because he's a very bad defensive third baseman and only slightly below average at first base, doesn't lose much value moving over.

The reason for this is that he gives away so many runs at third that the negative positional adjustment is almost wiped away by the runs he isn't giving away at first.


 
"doesn't lose much value"

But he loses some, right?    Wouldn't that make him LESS valuable?
In 2011 Cabrera played first base full time. His WAR was 6.7. In 2012 he played third base full time. His WAR was 6.8. That's essentially the same value.
11/18/2013 2:10 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
So you're telling me that position doesn't matter?   That a DH with an OPS of .900 is just as valuable as a 3B with an OPS of .900?
I didn't say that.

I said that Cabrera, because he's a very bad defensive third baseman and only slightly below average at first base, doesn't lose much value moving over.

The reason for this is that he gives away so many runs at third that the negative positional adjustment is almost wiped away by the runs he isn't giving away at first.


 
"doesn't lose much value"

But he loses some, right?    Wouldn't that make him LESS valuable?
In 2011 Cabrera played first base full time. His WAR was 6.7. In 2012 he played third base full time. His WAR was 6.8. That's essentially the same value.
OK, maybe my math is bad but 6.7 is LESS than 6.8, right?
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