All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Cabrera won MVP
11/18/2013 2:14 PM
Seriously, just say having Longoria on Detroit would make Cabera less valuable because he'd move to a different, less trying position.   

I know that ***** all over your other arguments but, don't worry, no one will bring it up a year later to say "HAHA!  You were wrong!!!"
11/18/2013 2:15 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
You're saying that despite the catcher's inferior offensive numbers, he's more valuable than the 1st baseman, because he's harder to replace, even if there's a replacement for him that's just as good on the bench.  Yes?
Yes
How many times were you hit over the head with a hammer this morning?
a .300/.400/.500 catcher is essentially Buster Posey.

A .310/.410/.530 first baseman is...Freddie Freeman...Allen Craig...Prince Fielder.

Even if you had his clone sitting on the bench, Posey is more valuable.

 
11/18/2013 2:17 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Here, I'll help.     Longoria and Cabrera aren't going to be playing 3B at the same time, right?   I don't think either of them will move to a harder defensive position, right?   So where are they playing?   1B or DH?   Fine and dandy but now you've got a Prince Fielder problem.   No matter either way because your beloved WAR downgrades players for moving down the fielding tree.     Therefore, it stands to reason, that Cabrera as a DH is less valuable. 


Fatal flaw?
He gives back so much value defensively at third that the positional adjustment to an easier position (1B) probably doesn't hurt his WAR.
So you're telling me that position doesn't matter?   That a DH with an OPS of .900 is just as valuable as a 3B with an OPS of .900?
I didn't say that.

I said that Cabrera, because he's a very bad defensive third baseman and only slightly below average at first base, doesn't lose much value moving over.

The reason for this is that he gives away so many runs at third that the negative positional adjustment is almost wiped away by the runs he isn't giving away at first.


 
"doesn't lose much value"

But he loses some, right?    Wouldn't that make him LESS valuable?
In 2011 Cabrera played first base full time. His WAR was 6.7. In 2012 he played third base full time. His WAR was 6.8. That's essentially the same value.
OK, maybe my math is bad but 6.7 is LESS than 6.8, right?
In this context, it's the same. Well, he did win the triple crown and the MVP in 2012, so there's the possibility that his offense was better enough in 2012 to account for that 0.1 difference.
11/18/2013 2:20 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, just say having Longoria on Detroit would make Cabera less valuable because he'd move to a different, less trying position.   

I know that ***** all over your other arguments but, don't worry, no one will bring it up a year later to say "HAHA!  You were wrong!!!"
You don't think that his defense at third could be a big enough negative number that he gains value by moving to an easier position?

Do you think Cabrera would gain value by moving to shortstop?

 
11/18/2013 2:29 PM
I think he plays 3B well enough to allow Fielder to play 1B, he certainly can't play 3B, and to let VMart DH, who shouldn't even have a glove.    Bringing in Longoria would make all three of them less valuable. 
11/18/2013 2:44 PM
This entire thing is beside the point. Someone (I can't remember who) argued that Trout was less valuable in 2013 because the Angels had Bourjos available to replace him. That this has gone on for several pages is a testament to getting waaay off track.

But, I think Cabrera plays 3B so poorly that moving him to 1B doesn't negatively affect his value. Fielder moves to DH which probably does negatively affect his value since he is only a below average first baseman, not a quadruple amputee, like Cabrera is at third.

 
11/18/2013 2:49 PM
Why don't you call Dave Dombrowski and recommend this?

Explain your rationale to him.

Maybe he'll offer you the job of Assistant GM.  Or Secretary of "WAR, ************!!!".  Or some other front-office job.

While you're at it, maybe you can also tell him how massively retarded it was for one of his players to receive back-to-back MVP awards.

Good luck with your new job!
11/18/2013 2:57 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/16/2013 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Posted by raucous on 11/16/2013 2:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/16/2013 12:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 11/16/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Since BL won't I will (emphasis mine):

"I also hear the Trout proponents make the point that the Cabrera supporters are ignoring Cabrera's mediocre September (when his batting average was just .278, with only two extra-base hits all month).

Well, I, for one, am not ignoring it. It ought to be a factor, for any voter. But I also think Cabrera's September vividly defines the difference between his team and Trout's team.

If Miguel Cabrera played for Mike Trout's team -- a team that finished 18 games out of first place and spent exactly one day above .500 all season -- hey, guess what?

He never would have had that mediocre September -- because he wouldn't have been playing.

He was a guy who spent that whole month (and October) battling a groin/abdomen injury that was so severe, he required surgery right after the season. And here's something I've noticed about players on losing teams who are that seriously injured:

Their teams shut them down.

There's no reason for them to battle through the pain and the limitations at the end of a lost season. So they pack it in.

But as Cabrera told us in October, once the Tigers had finally been eliminated, he felt he had to play because his team was trying to win. And he understood what his presence meant to a team that needed to keep pushing, all the way to the finish line.

Because he felt that way, he staggered through the last five weeks of the season -- and still finished with a stat line so incredible (.348/.442/.636/1.078/44 HR) that only two other right-handed hitters in the history of baseball (Jimmie Foxx and Hack Wilson) have ever matched or beaten it.

So please. Can the folks on the Trout side stop writing and/or screaming that those 23 MVP voters who cast their first-place votes for Miguel Cabrera were "wrong," or just a bunch of dopes who made a "bad" choice?"

You didn't need to quote the entire thing. You could have just summed it up like this:

Trout was clearly the best player in baseball in 2013. But, because the rest of Trout's team sucked, Stark thinks the MVP should go to the second most valuable player in the league.
Still...you...do...not...know...what...MVP...means?  Are you illiterate and use Dragon to speak your mind on here?
Most valuable is by definition the best. Had the Tigers received Trout's production instead of Cabrera's, they would have won more games.
Had the Tigers had Trout instead of Cabrera, the Indians would have won the division as Cabrera is the better player.   
11/18/2013 2:58 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Why don't you call Dave Dombrowski and recommend this?

Explain your rationale to him.

Maybe he'll offer you the job of Assistant GM.  Or Secretary of "WAR, ************!!!".  Or some other front-office job.

While you're at it, maybe you can also tell him how massively retarded it was for one of his players to receive back-to-back MVP awards.

Good luck with your new job!
I don't think it was retarded for him to win. I think it was retarded for him to win based on the argument that he was more valuable because the Tigers made the playoffs and the Angels didn't. You could certainly make the argument that Cabrera was better in 2013.
11/18/2013 3:24 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 11/18/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Yes, I'm sorry that you didn't assume that without additional information, that they were equal in games played and defensive ability.

The catcher is harder to replace, right?  But what if you had someone just as good behind him on the bench?  Is he still more valuable? 

 
Yes, the catcher is still more valuable.
You're saying that despite the catcher's inferior offensive numbers, he's more valuable than the 1st baseman, because he's harder to replace, even if there's a replacement for him that's just as good on the bench.  Yes?
Yes
How many times were you hit over the head with a hammer this morning?
a .300/.400/.500 catcher is essentially Buster Posey.

A .310/.410/.530 first baseman is...Freddie Freeman...Allen Craig...Prince Fielder.

Even if you had his clone sitting on the bench, Posey is more valuable.

 
He is not that valuable to his team because the team doesn't miss a beat if he gets hurt, leaves, gets traded, gets hit by a car, etc.  How valuable is he if someone else could do his job just as well?  If the Giants had 2 Buster Poseys on their team, they'd be trying to trade one.  Because the 2nd Buster Posey has more value to a different team.
 
11/18/2013 3:37 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
This entire thing is beside the point. Someone (I can't remember who) argued that Trout was less valuable in 2013 because the Angels had Bourjos available to replace him. That this has gone on for several pages is a testament to getting waaay off track.

But, I think Cabrera plays 3B so poorly that moving him to 1B doesn't negatively affect his value. Fielder moves to DH which probably does negatively affect his value since he is only a below average first baseman, not a quadruple amputee, like Cabrera is at third.

 
The point I was making, and you confirmed with your 6.7/6.8 WAR, is value can depend on several factors.   Including teammates. 
11/18/2013 3:44 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2013 2:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/15/2013 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/15/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 11/15/2013 8:24:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, a better case could have been made for Trout last year, as his team won 89 games; one more win than Cabrera's team.

This season, it's difficult to make a case for an "MVP" coming from a team with a losing record.
Sure. Trout having better teammates last year definitely made him more valuable than he was this year, when his teammates sucked.
This is funny.

I knew what BL was trying to do when he started this thread.   Now I wonder if tec knows and is sucking BL into the argument that BL desperately wants or if tec has been sucked into BL's argument unwittingly.

Only they know.
I'll add burnsy to the list and myself to a lesser extent because I've only peeked down the rabbit hole.  I'll travel no further.
<climbing out of the rabbit hole. filling it with concrete. leaving.>
11/18/2013 3:50 PM
It's pretty pointless.   I believe BL knows that value can be affected by many factors.   If someone is easily replaceable, they're less valuable.  That's why FF workers make the minimum wage.   If you've got someone sitting on the bench who can takeover for a player, he's less valuable because of it.   Of course, BL will not admit this because it wrecks everything he's posted about Trout/Cabrera for the last year. 
11/18/2013 3:51 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
This entire thing is beside the point. Someone (I can't remember who) argued that Trout was less valuable in 2013 because the Angels had Bourjos available to replace him. That this has gone on for several pages is a testament to getting waaay off track.

But, I think Cabrera plays 3B so poorly that moving him to 1B doesn't negatively affect his value. Fielder moves to DH which probably does negatively affect his value since he is only a below average first baseman, not a quadruple amputee, like Cabrera is at third.

 
The point I was making, and you confirmed with your 6.7/6.8 WAR, is value can depend on several factors.   Including teammates. 
How did teammates raise/lower Cabrera's WAR?
11/18/2013 3:54 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
This entire thing is beside the point. Someone (I can't remember who) argued that Trout was less valuable in 2013 because the Angels had Bourjos available to replace him. That this has gone on for several pages is a testament to getting waaay off track.

But, I think Cabrera plays 3B so poorly that moving him to 1B doesn't negatively affect his value. Fielder moves to DH which probably does negatively affect his value since he is only a below average first baseman, not a quadruple amputee, like Cabrera is at third.

 
The point I was making, and you confirmed with your 6.7/6.8 WAR, is value can depend on several factors.   Including teammates. 
How did teammates raise/lower Cabrera's WAR?
Change of positions.
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