Bernie or Edgar? Topic

toddcommish
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Seems to me that the argument for Bernie is similar to the argument for Jeter (gee, I wonder why).  All the Bernie-philes are putting extreme weight on the fact that he played CF, and Edgar sat on his ***.  What they're ignoring is that Bernie was a very good hitting left fielder playing CF (kinda like a very good hitting 2B playing SS).  It just so happens that the Yankees like having good hitting teams, and don't emphasize details like range or throwing.

12/5/2013 4:15 PM
bad_luck
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Fangraphs, for example, lays it out in an easier to understand way.

Martinez played a lot of 3rd in 1991. He was credited with 6 fielding runs above average. He gets a positional adjustment of 1.1 (based on the position and the playing time) and totals 7.1 runs above average.

In 2003 he only played DH. He gets 0 fielding runs above average. The positional adjustment was -15 and he totals -15 fielding runs above average for the season.
12/5/2013 4:59 PM (edited)
bad_luck
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Posted by dahsdebater on 12/5/2013 4:09:00 PM (view original):
I'd also like to take advantage of this opportunity to point out how laughable I think it is that several of the people who have championed Edgar Martinez in this thread were also amongst those lampooning the Rangers for trading Kinsler for Prince Fielder.  As I pointed out on the last page, I would consider Edgar to have been roughly the 10th best hitter in baseball in his prime.  I would put Prince at about 5th right now (behind Trout, Cabrera, Votto, and McCutcheon, offense only under consideration).  Arguably even 4th.  And Kinsler is no Bernie Williams with the bat, not even close.  Yes, he's a better fielder, but not THAT much better.  Obviously the Prince contract is a consideration, but with Texas trying to win now...  Just saying...
That has more to do with the contracts and the expected decline curves for each player. At least from my perspective.
12/5/2013 4:17 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by dahsdebater on 12/5/2013 4:15:00 PM (view original):
1993 and 1994.
I wouldn't call that his prime.  And he barely played in 1993.

Looking forward to the $.  Hope that fat **** stays healthy.
12/5/2013 4:18 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by dahsdebater on 12/5/2013 4:12:00 PM (view original):
Comes right back to what I was saying - you can find a guy to be a very serviceable DH year by year.  You just can't go out and find somebody to play in CF.
But Edgar was SOOOOO much better than just a serviceable DH. 
12/5/2013 4:19 PM
dahsdebater
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Posted by toddcommish on 12/5/2013 4:15:00 PM (view original):
Seems to me that the argument for Bernie is similar to the argument for Jeter (gee, I wonder why).  All the Bernie-philes are putting extreme weight on the fact that he played CF, and Edgar sat on his ***.  What they're ignoring is that Bernie was a very good hitting left fielder playing CF (kinda like a very good hitting 2B playing SS).  It just so happens that the Yankees like having good hitting teams, and don't emphasize details like range or throwing.

I think you'll find that I'm as anti-Jeter as most of us who hate the Yankees.  But it's not nearly the same.  UZR wasn't being compiled during Bernie's prime, so you can't really prove anything statistically, but I would consider him a fairly average glove in CF.  Maybe a bit below average, but not nearly as bad as Jeter is at SS.  And Jeter is no 2B.  He doesn't have the reaction time.  He should be a COF.  Arguably both should have been COF, although as I said I really don't think Bernie was truly unsuited to center.  And I think Bernie's bat frankly plays a bit better at a COF spot than Jeter's does, although you wouldn't scoff at either of them.
12/5/2013 4:20 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2013 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 12/5/2013 4:09:00 PM (view original):
I'd also like to take advantage of this opportunity to point out how laughable I think it is that several of the people who have championed Edgar Martinez in this thread were also amongst those lampooning the Rangers for trading Kinsler for Prince Fielder.  As I pointed out on the last page, I would consider Edgar to have been roughly the 10th best hitter in baseball in his prime.  I would put Prince at about 5th right now (behind Trout, Cabrera, Votto, and McCutcheon, offense only under consideration).  Arguably even 4th.  And Kinsler is no Bernie Williams with the bat, not even close.  Yes, he's a better fielder, but not THAT much better.  Obviously the Prince contract is a consideration, but with Texas trying to win now...  Just saying...
That has more to do with the contracts and the expected decline curves for each player. At least from my perspective.
Also, Edgar was probably the best hitter in baseball in 1995. I don't think Fielder has ever been the best hitter in baseball.
12/5/2013 4:22 PM
toddcommish
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Edgar >>>> "serviceable DH"
Edgar << "serviceable 3B"
Bernie >> "serviceable CF" offensively
Bernie << "serviceable CF" defensively

And I know Bill James defensive spectrum has become gospel around here, but seriously... center field is not HARD to play.  It may be important due to volume of balls compared to COF, but it comes down to catching the balls you can reach, and throwing accurately.  In a lot of ways, it's easier because fly balls are easier to pick up off the bat from CF compared to the corners.

12/5/2013 4:23 PM
burnsy483
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Center field is one of the most important positions in the game.  A great defensive center fielder makes a great deal of difference to a poor defensive center fielder.  That's just common sense.  In the simplest of terms, if a great CF can get to a ball that a poor one can't, once a game, that's the difference of a hit a game.  162 hits.

That doesn't happen every game, but if it happens once every few games, it adds up.
12/5/2013 4:27 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by toddcommish on 12/5/2013 4:15:00 PM (view original):
Seems to me that the argument for Bernie is similar to the argument for Jeter (gee, I wonder why).  All the Bernie-philes are putting extreme weight on the fact that he played CF, and Edgar sat on his ***.  What they're ignoring is that Bernie was a very good hitting left fielder playing CF (kinda like a very good hitting 2B playing SS).  It just so happens that the Yankees like having good hitting teams, and don't emphasize details like range or throwing.

The argument for Bernie has nothing to do with Jeter.

It's would you take BW or EM.   Nothing about Jeter.

Most who would take BW would do so because he played average to above average CF and hit well above average for a CF.   EM rode a stationary bike and studied film while the rest of the starting line-up played D.      Jeter neither DHs or plays CF.    

Dumbass.
12/5/2013 4:44 PM
toddcommish
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Sometimes it's a slow day, and poking Mike helps pass the time.
12/5/2013 4:58 PM
MikeT23
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So that's your excuse for being a dumbass?

Weak.

12/5/2013 7:39 PM
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toddcommish
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Edgar and Bernie belong in the Hall of Very Good.  Edgar was arguably the best ever at a half-position.  Bernie was a very good player for a very good team at a very important position.

It's just entertaining to watch people that seem to fight soooooo vehemently over something as minor as "who's better"? 

Can they both be really really good?

Mays > Mantle too.
12/5/2013 7:42 PM
MikeT23
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I've said they're both very good and neither is worthy of the HOF.   However, some insist that EM is MASSIVELY better than BW.  Which is stupid. 
12/5/2013 7:47 PM
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