All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Bernie or Edgar?
12/6/2013 9:45 PM
If Bernie & Edgar were both Yankees, I don't think this vote would even be close.  If Bernie were a Mariner and Edgar a Yankee, the discussion would never even have come up.
There is no way of looking at the offense that would say that Bernie was very close to Edgar.
I'm not much of a fan of defensive WAR, and I'm probably misunderstanding a little, but if you look at Edgar's career dWAR (according to baseball-reference) it is -9.7.  Most of that came in years where he was almost exclusively or exclusively a DH, so I think the calculation assigns a player a (-) value for being a DH (which is fair, when looking at overall value).  In fact, he had a positive dWAR in a number of yearsin which he played 3B (probably only M's fans... and even few of those... remember that he was actually a very good 3B before his leg injuries no longer allowed him to play the position regularly.
Bernie's career dWAR was -10.3... that would indicate he was not an above average, but a below average CF.  I know he won some GG's, but those are a popularity contest, often... I mean, ****, Jeter has GG's and he is a ******* terrible SS (just makes some very high profile, exciting plays)... and he is not the only ridiculous GG winner.
Ultimately, I would take Edgar and Mike Cameron (just using as an example... there are plenty of lesser CF's I could plug in) over Bernie and any of the DH's the M's have had since Edgar by a ******* mile.... Edgar would be and was just FAR more difficult to replace than Bernie (far more likeable as well, but only Mariner fans would probably know that)
12/10/2013 4:32 PM
12/10/2013 10:16 PM
Posted by bench5 on 12/6/2013 9:41:00 PM (view original):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LWYQwDgICug

Edgar had the best right-handed swing I've ever seen. I loved his approach in the box.
Thanks for posting that link. My favorite all time non A's player. Dude could flat out rake. In no universe was Bernie Williams his equal. He even has a street named for him outside the stadium.
12/10/2013 10:59 PM
One other note --->>> & definitely a glaring,
guiding light that tilts the argument here :

Edgar was underpaid, & Bernie overpaid...

Facts are facts, & un-argue-able, -period...

12/11/2013 12:14 AM
Posted by The Taint on 12/10/2013 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bench5 on 12/6/2013 9:41:00 PM (view original):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LWYQwDgICug

Edgar had the best right-handed swing I've ever seen. I loved his approach in the box.
Thanks for posting that link. My favorite all time non A's player. Dude could flat out rake. In no universe was Bernie Williams his equal. He even has a street named for him outside the stadium.
That swing should be in a Museum...or the HOF
12/11/2013 9:46 AM
I'm not sure ihow much importance to his franchise should factor in this argument, but on that front, Bernie isn't even in the same stratosphere as Edgar.  As Taint said, he's got a street around the stadium named after him, he is the most beloved Mariner in team history (arguably the best, as well, in spite of Griffey, A-Rod & Randy) and, as the article highlighted, he hit "The Double".
The Designated Hitter award is also named after him ("Edgar Martínez Outstanding Designated Hitter Award").
12/11/2013 10:11 AM
I named by dog Bernie after Williams.    Just so I could yell "GODDAMMIT, BERNIE, GO GET THE ******* BALL!!!!!" like I did when balls were hit in the gap and BW looked like he was loafing after it.  

So naming **** after players isn't a very good way to judge "importance".    Aaron Hernandez had a stone with his name on it removed at the U.   Did he somehow accomplish less because his rock was removed?
12/11/2013 10:17 AM
I just can't see it.  Williams was a very good hitter and could play centerfield.  Competantly.  Otherwise I believe the Yankees would've addressed that.  Course when you win all those titles with Williams in center, why change a damn thing?  I recall when Williams and his agent strung along Boston to drive up his price for his next contract with the Yankees.  I was a little disappointed the Red Sox didn't land him. 

Martinez couldn't play in the field.  What would've happened had he played before the 70's?  Nobody would've heard of his @ss except Calgary Cannons fans, because in the majors back then you had to play in the field as well.  With his bat I'd like to think he would've plodded along at 3B or as a converted 1B but NO WAY would his career have lasted as long as it did otherwise.

On a sidenote, after he shaved, I always thought Martinez looked like a hispanic Russell Crowe  :-))
12/11/2013 10:28 AM
It's also quite funny that Martinez has a street named after him.   I guess he's the best player they ever had, in their long illustrious history, who didn't leave as soon as he could.  
12/11/2013 10:44 AM (edited)
Edgar Martinez played the majority of his career in the hitting friendly confines of the Kingdome('87-'99) as well.  To be fair he put up great numbers in a stadium that is the polar opposite of the Kingdome, Safeco('99-'04) as well.  But still, it should be noted.

Williams on the otherhand played in a pitcher friendly version of Yankee stadium his entire career. 

I think the stadium angle can be over-analyzed just like fielding prowess, but again it is worth noting.
Kingdome
Seattle, WA
Seattle Mariners
1977-1999
T 331 376 405 352 312 17.5 11.5 23 -2 +1 -1 +2 +2 1.04
Yankee Stadium (II)
New York, NY
New York Yankees
1976-2008
G 318 399 408 385 314 8 7 10 0 -1 -1 0 0 0.95





12/11/2013 10:54 AM
Posted by arvidjosef on 12/11/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Edgar Martinez played the majority of his career in the hitting friendly confines of the Kingdome('87-'99) as well.  To be fair he put up great numbers in a stadium that is the polar opposite of the Kingdome, Safeco('99-'04) as well.  But still, it should be noted.

Williams on the otherhand played in a pitcher friendly version of Yankee stadium his entire career. 

I think the stadium angle can be over-analyzed just like fielding prowess, but again it is worth noting.
Kingdome
Seattle, WA
Seattle Mariners
1977-1999
T 331 376 405 352 312 17.5 11.5 23 -2 +1 -1 +2 +2 1.04
Yankee Stadium (II)
New York, NY
New York Yankees
1976-2008
G 318 399 408 385 314 8 7 10 0 -1 -1 0 0 0.95





OPS+ accounts for park factors.
12/11/2013 11:19 AM
Posted by kcden on 12/6/2013 9:45:00 PM (view original):
If Bernie & Edgar were both Yankees, I don't think this vote would even be close.  If Bernie were a Mariner and Edgar a Yankee, the discussion would never even have come up.
There is no way of looking at the offense that would say that Bernie was very close to Edgar.
I'm not much of a fan of defensive WAR, and I'm probably misunderstanding a little, but if you look at Edgar's career dWAR (according to baseball-reference) it is -9.7.  Most of that came in years where he was almost exclusively or exclusively a DH, so I think the calculation assigns a player a (-) value for being a DH (which is fair, when looking at overall value).  In fact, he had a positive dWAR in a number of yearsin which he played 3B (probably only M's fans... and even few of those... remember that he was actually a very good 3B before his leg injuries no longer allowed him to play the position regularly.
Bernie's career dWAR was -10.3... that would indicate he was not an above average, but a below average CF.  I know he won some GG's, but those are a popularity contest, often... I mean, ****, Jeter has GG's and he is a ******* terrible SS (just makes some very high profile, exciting plays)... and he is not the only ridiculous GG winner.
Ultimately, I would take Edgar and Mike Cameron (just using as an example... there are plenty of lesser CF's I could plug in) over Bernie and any of the DH's the M's have had since Edgar by a ******* mile.... Edgar would be and was just FAR more difficult to replace than Bernie (far more likeable as well, but only Mariner fans would probably know that)
This is quite convincing I must admit
of 29
All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Bernie or Edgar?

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.