All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > 2015 baseball HOF ballot.
2/7/2014 10:11 AM
tec can make his own arguments but I'd say there are more "worthy" candidates now than when Blyleven/Rice were "HOF in waiting".    IOW, the backlog is much deeper. 
2/7/2014 10:12 AM
Rice and Blyleven in the HOF is a joke.  You know that.
2/7/2014 10:15 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 10:11:00 AM (view original):
tec can make his own arguments but I'd say there are more "worthy" candidates now than when Blyleven/Rice were "HOF in waiting".    IOW, the backlog is much deeper. 
Agreed.  The steroid guys will be "stealing" votes from other guys who normally may have gotten them.

And it will continue to be that way as long as the ten-vote limit per ballot stays in place.
2/7/2014 10:16 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 2/7/2014 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Rice and Blyleven in the HOF is a joke.  You know that.
Exactly (for Rice anyway. I get the argument for Blyleven).  Yet, they got in.  Still hope for Martinez.
2/7/2014 10:17 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 2/7/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 10:11:00 AM (view original):
tec can make his own arguments but I'd say there are more "worthy" candidates now than when Blyleven/Rice were "HOF in waiting".    IOW, the backlog is much deeper. 
Agreed.  The steroid guys will be "stealing" votes from other guys who normally may have gotten them.

And it will continue to be that way as long as the ten-vote limit per ballot stays in place.
I agree this is an issue.  Some of the superstar roiders need to get in first before Martinez has a real shot.
2/7/2014 10:26 AM
Not only that, I think there are some definite HOFers coming along.   Martinez, Johnson, Smoltz, Griffey, I-Rod(depending on the 'roid voting).   In addition to Biggio(a gimme even if I disagree), Bagwell/Piazza('roid rumors) and the cases that will be made for Edmonds/Vlad Guerrero.    I think it's a rough road ahead for anyone with less than 50% of the voting since their eligibility. 
2/7/2014 10:33 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 8:47:00 AM (view original):
Let's try it this way.

I think it's fair to say his peak years were 1995-2001.   He missed significant time in '93-94 and essentially put his glove away(sort of confirming your contention that he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury).
I think it's fair to say you love WAR.    In those 7 peak years, he was top 10 in WAR once.   5th in '95 or '96(I don't remember).  

Do you really think he is HOF-worthy when he can crack the top 10 just once in his 7 peak years in the stat you refer to most often?
So it's ok to argue using WAR now? Just want to establish some ground rules before we go down this road. Don't want to spend a bunch of time getting into it just to have you say, "well, WAR is completely useless anyway."
2/7/2014 10:42 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 2/7/2014 10:33:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 8:47:00 AM (view original):
Let's try it this way.

I think it's fair to say his peak years were 1995-2001.   He missed significant time in '93-94 and essentially put his glove away(sort of confirming your contention that he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury).
I think it's fair to say you love WAR.    In those 7 peak years, he was top 10 in WAR once.   5th in '95 or '96(I don't remember).  

Do you really think he is HOF-worthy when he can crack the top 10 just once in his 7 peak years in the stat you refer to most often?
So it's ok to argue using WAR now? Just want to establish some ground rules before we go down this road. Don't want to spend a bunch of time getting into it just to have you say, "well, WAR is completely useless anyway."
Agree it's kinda ****** to use a stat to help your argument and then dismiss it 90% of the rest of the time.
2/7/2014 10:44 AM
As I've said numerous times, I use WAR to accommodate you.   I don't think  WAR is completely useless, I mostly reserve that for dWAR.     Beyond that, is there anything else in there you disagree with?

Martinez was a pretty good hitter.  Probably better than I gave him credit for before two years of arguing his HOF-worthiness.   But, nonetheless, I still don't think he was dominant, in part because his % stats are inflated by walking alot and I think middle-of-the-order guys hold more value when they put the ball in play, so I still don't think he should be in the HOF.
2/7/2014 10:46 AM
Hall of Taking Pitches.
2/7/2014 10:53 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 10:46:00 AM (view original):
Hall of Taking Pitches.
Like Mickey Mantle.
2/7/2014 11:00 AM
Here's the thing - I accept an argument of "Edgar Martinez isn't a HOFer."  Just not your specific argument.  The argument of "he wasn't good enough at hitting" is nuts.  If you want to argue A) he didn't play long enough and B) he didn't play the field, then that's fine and I understand.  I don't think that's crazy.  But the argument you make is silly.
2/7/2014 11:21 AM
Well, you seem to be compartmentalizing my argument.  

1.  I think he played long enough and I think he had a nice run of "peak years."    HOF eligible.
2.  He was a pretty good hitter but, unfortunately, he didn't play the field.   That's a mark in the bad column.
3.  He was a 3-4-5 hitter but, IMO, he walked a great deal.   Was he pitched around?  Unlikely with A-Rod and Griffey in the line-up.  Bad, IMO.
4.  It's not like when he swung, he made connection.   He struck out once every 6 AB.   Bad.
5.  We're speculating but we seem to agree he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury.  Bad.

All in all, he was a pretty good hitter.  Maybe even really good.   But he wasn't dominant at the plate during his peak and he didn't play the field.   That's just no HOF material to me.
2/7/2014 11:50 AM
I will say this . . . I'd put Edgar Martinez in the HOF before I'd put Jamie Cambridge in the HOF.

Though neither belong.
2/7/2014 12:00 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/7/2014 11:21:00 AM (view original):
Well, you seem to be compartmentalizing my argument.  

1.  I think he played long enough and I think he had a nice run of "peak years."    HOF eligible.
2.  He was a pretty good hitter but, unfortunately, he didn't play the field.   That's a mark in the bad column.
3.  He was a 3-4-5 hitter but, IMO, he walked a great deal.   Was he pitched around?  Unlikely with A-Rod and Griffey in the line-up.  Bad, IMO.
4.  It's not like when he swung, he made connection.   He struck out once every 6 AB.   Bad.
5.  We're speculating but we seem to agree he became a DH to lessen the risk of injury.  Bad.

All in all, he was a pretty good hitter.  Maybe even really good.   But he wasn't dominant at the plate during his peak and he didn't play the field.   That's just no HOF material to me.
3) Not making outs is a good thing. Not bad.
4) Who cares? An out is an out.
5) Agreed.

He was very dominant. Probably the best hitter in the AL in 1995 and among the top 5 in 1992, 1996, and 1997, which is pretty good considering his career overlapped Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Frank Thomas, and Manny Ramirez, four of the greatest hitters of all time.
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