Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:25:00 AM (view original):
We're talking about 2005?

Maybe sit Tino? Jeter/Matsui/Giambi were all much better bats than Martinez that year. It wouldn't have been hard to find a way to get all three in the lineup with 1B available. Bernie Williams was the real weak link on that team.

Also nothing wrong with leaving Jeter at short at this point. 

04 or 05 i believe.

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:34:00 AM (view original):
That's even easier. Tony Clark and Ruben Sierra got 620 combined PA with a 95 and 94 OPS+ at the 1B and DH spots. Miguel Cairo got 400 PA at 2B. I'm sure the Yankees could have figured something out.

But again, no need to move Jeter in 2004.

Who plays 1st? 

Want to do the joke...but I won't.

Pretty sure a Giambi/Tino combo would work.

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:34:00 AM (view original):
That's even easier. Tony Clark and Ruben Sierra got 620 combined PA with a 95 and 94 OPS+ at the 1B and DH spots. Miguel Cairo got 400 PA at 2B. I'm sure the Yankees could have figured something out.

But again, no need to move Jeter in 2004.

Who plays 1st? 

I'm sure they could have figured something out. 1st is the easiest position to play on the diamond. I think Jeter could have handled it if he had to. Same with Sheffield, who used to play third.

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/2/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/2/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):
3B free agents 2004
Beltre

SS 2004
Alex Gonzalez
Orlando Cabera
Omar Vizquel 

I'd say they could have done a lot better moving Jeters to LF.

Jeter goes to LF and Beltre signs.   What happens then?

At that time.  A-Roid was a stud SS.  He won the GG at SS the 2 previous years before he went to the Yanks (and they were legit ones).

It was clear as day that A-Rod was a far superior defensive SS than Jeter.  Only Yankee fans didn't see it.

But what happens if that move is made?   A-Rod to SS, Jeter to LF and Beltre plays 3B.

What happens?

They'd have 2 stud defensive players on the left side of the field.

Jeter would have been a upgrade of Matsui/Sheffield.  One of them would have DH'ed....and it would have improved their D.

And what happens?  They contend for a title?

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/2/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/2/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):
3B free agents 2004
Beltre

SS 2004
Alex Gonzalez
Orlando Cabera
Omar Vizquel 

I'd say they could have done a lot better moving Jeters to LF.

Jeter goes to LF and Beltre signs.   What happens then?

At that time.  A-Roid was a stud SS.  He won the GG at SS the 2 previous years before he went to the Yanks (and they were legit ones).

It was clear as day that A-Rod was a far superior defensive SS than Jeter.  Only Yankee fans didn't see it.

But what happens if that move is made?   A-Rod to SS, Jeter to LF and Beltre plays 3B.

What happens?

They'd have 2 stud defensive players on the left side of the field.

Jeter would have been a upgrade of Matsui/Sheffield.  One of them would have DH'ed....and it would have improved their D.

And what happens?  They contend for a title?

Oh lord shut up.  Please.  You're just as bad as JT.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/2/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/2/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):
3B free agents 2004
Beltre

SS 2004
Alex Gonzalez
Orlando Cabera
Omar Vizquel 

I'd say they could have done a lot better moving Jeters to LF.

Jeter goes to LF and Beltre signs.   What happens then?

At that time.  A-Roid was a stud SS.  He won the GG at SS the 2 previous years before he went to the Yanks (and they were legit ones).

It was clear as day that A-Rod was a far superior defensive SS than Jeter.  Only Yankee fans didn't see it.

But what happens if that move is made?   A-Rod to SS, Jeter to LF and Beltre plays 3B.

What happens?

They'd have 2 stud defensive players on the left side of the field.

Jeter would have been a upgrade of Matsui/Sheffield.  One of them would have DH'ed....and it would have improved their D.

And what happens?  They contend for a title?

Well, they would have been better overall. They won more games than the Sox that year but Boston was really better, outscoring the Yanks by 50+ runs and allowing 40 less.

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:34:00 AM (view original):
That's even easier. Tony Clark and Ruben Sierra got 620 combined PA with a 95 and 94 OPS+ at the 1B and DH spots. Miguel Cairo got 400 PA at 2B. I'm sure the Yankees could have figured something out.

But again, no need to move Jeter in 2004.

Who plays 1st? 

I'm sure they could have figured something out. 1st is the easiest position to play on the diamond. I think Jeter could have handled it if he had to. Same with Sheffield, who used to play third.

So make Jeter play outfield, a position he's not comfortable playing, or 1st.  Or something.  Or someone else does - multiple people are learning to play different positions.  Or is Jeter a utility guy at this point? 500 atbats bouncing around in left, 1st, 2nd...

Jeter to 3rd and ARod at SS would have made more sense.  Of course, ARod got bigger and would have broken down quicker at SS and been hurt more often, and then you would have had to find a new SS.  But at the time, ARod was easily a better SS than Jeter was.

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/2/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/2/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):
3B free agents 2004
Beltre

SS 2004
Alex Gonzalez
Orlando Cabera
Omar Vizquel 

I'd say they could have done a lot better moving Jeters to LF.

Jeter goes to LF and Beltre signs.   What happens then?

At that time.  A-Roid was a stud SS.  He won the GG at SS the 2 previous years before he went to the Yanks (and they were legit ones).

It was clear as day that A-Rod was a far superior defensive SS than Jeter.  Only Yankee fans didn't see it.

But what happens if that move is made?   A-Rod to SS, Jeter to LF and Beltre plays 3B.

What happens?

They'd have 2 stud defensive players on the left side of the field.

Jeter would have been a upgrade of Matsui/Sheffield.  One of them would have DH'ed....and it would have improved their D.

And what happens?  They contend for a title?

Well, they would have been better overall. They won more games than the Sox that year but Boston was really better, outscoring the Yanks by 50+ runs and allowing 40 less.

They'd be better off now because of it now.  Jeter wouldn't be running in quicksand out there at SS.

Mike's point is the idea is moot - Yankees were always in the playoffs, and there's no evidence to suggest the Yankees won less championships because Jeter was playing shortstop.  Getting Beltre or something and moving people all around the diamond? Not sure how much that would have helped.

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:34:00 AM (view original):
That's even easier. Tony Clark and Ruben Sierra got 620 combined PA with a 95 and 94 OPS+ at the 1B and DH spots. Miguel Cairo got 400 PA at 2B. I'm sure the Yankees could have figured something out.

But again, no need to move Jeter in 2004.

Who plays 1st? 

I'm sure they could have figured something out. 1st is the easiest position to play on the diamond. I think Jeter could have handled it if he had to. Same with Sheffield, who used to play third.

So make Jeter play outfield, a position he's not comfortable playing, or 1st.  Or something.  Or someone else does - multiple people are learning to play different positions.  Or is Jeter a utility guy at this point? 500 atbats bouncing around in left, 1st, 2nd...

Jeter to 3rd and ARod at SS would have made more sense.  Of course, ARod got bigger and would have broken down quicker at SS and been hurt more often, and then you would have had to find a new SS.  But at the time, ARod was easily a better SS than Jeter was.

I'm sorry, but moving from SS to LF isn't hard.  It's on the same side of the field (seeing the game the same way), just in the outfield.   Sure, he'd have to adjust a bit, but that's what the offseason and spring training are for!

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:51:00 AM (view original):
Mike's point is the idea is moot - Yankees were always in the playoffs, and there's no evidence to suggest the Yankees won less championships because Jeter was playing shortstop.  Getting Beltre or something and moving people all around the diamond? Not sure how much that would have helped.

I know.  

Also, getting Beltre would have moved Jeter to LF and either Matsui or Sheff to DH.

Not the whole diamond around.  Remember, Arod was a Gold Glove SS..

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:34:00 AM (view original):
That's even easier. Tony Clark and Ruben Sierra got 620 combined PA with a 95 and 94 OPS+ at the 1B and DH spots. Miguel Cairo got 400 PA at 2B. I'm sure the Yankees could have figured something out.

But again, no need to move Jeter in 2004.

Who plays 1st? 

I'm sure they could have figured something out. 1st is the easiest position to play on the diamond. I think Jeter could have handled it if he had to. Same with Sheffield, who used to play third.

So make Jeter play outfield, a position he's not comfortable playing, or 1st.  Or something.  Or someone else does - multiple people are learning to play different positions.  Or is Jeter a utility guy at this point? 500 atbats bouncing around in left, 1st, 2nd...

Jeter to 3rd and ARod at SS would have made more sense.  Of course, ARod got bigger and would have broken down quicker at SS and been hurt more often, and then you would have had to find a new SS.  But at the time, ARod was easily a better SS than Jeter was.

I'm really fine with Jeter staying at short. He was bad defensively but his bat more than made up for it.

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:13:00 AM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/2/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/2/2014 11:46:00 AM (view original):
3B free agents 2004
Beltre

SS 2004
Alex Gonzalez
Orlando Cabera
Omar Vizquel 

I'd say they could have done a lot better moving Jeters to LF.

Jeter goes to LF and Beltre signs.   What happens then?

At that time.  A-Roid was a stud SS.  He won the GG at SS the 2 previous years before he went to the Yanks (and they were legit ones).

It was clear as day that A-Rod was a far superior defensive SS than Jeter.  Only Yankee fans didn't see it.

But what happens if that move is made?   A-Rod to SS, Jeter to LF and Beltre plays 3B.

What happens?

They'd have 2 stud defensive players on the left side of the field.

Jeter would have been a upgrade of Matsui/Sheffield.  One of them would have DH'ed....and it would have improved their D.

And what happens?  They contend for a title?

Well, they would have been better overall. They won more games than the Sox that year but Boston was really better, outscoring the Yanks by 50+ runs and allowing 40 less.

They'd be better off now because of it now.  Jeter wouldn't be running in quicksand out there at SS.

Well, nothing is preventing them from benching Jeter this season and signing Drew.

Posted by 05nomar05 on 3/3/2014 11:51:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 3/3/2014 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/3/2014 11:34:00 AM (view original):
That's even easier. Tony Clark and Ruben Sierra got 620 combined PA with a 95 and 94 OPS+ at the 1B and DH spots. Miguel Cairo got 400 PA at 2B. I'm sure the Yankees could have figured something out.

But again, no need to move Jeter in 2004.

Who plays 1st? 

I'm sure they could have figured something out. 1st is the easiest position to play on the diamond. I think Jeter could have handled it if he had to. Same with Sheffield, who used to play third.

So make Jeter play outfield, a position he's not comfortable playing, or 1st.  Or something.  Or someone else does - multiple people are learning to play different positions.  Or is Jeter a utility guy at this point? 500 atbats bouncing around in left, 1st, 2nd...

Jeter to 3rd and ARod at SS would have made more sense.  Of course, ARod got bigger and would have broken down quicker at SS and been hurt more often, and then you would have had to find a new SS.  But at the time, ARod was easily a better SS than Jeter was.

I'm sorry, but moving from SS to LF isn't hard.  It's on the same side of the field (seeing the game the same way), just in the outfield.   Sure, he'd have to adjust a bit, but that's what the offseason and spring training are for!

Playing shortstop and then playing left field are not "seeing the game the same way."  Not every infielder can play the outfield well.  

I'd argue that Matsui would move to RF and Sheffield would DH.  Which would then also mean that the Yankees can't use DH as their way of resting their 30+ y/o sluggers like they have historically, if you have a full time DH.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2014 11:30:00 AM (view original):
It's a dumb argument.  

You move him in 2004, A-Rod plays SS for 2 years then "outgrows" the position.   Matsui is playing 1B(or course he can play it!!!) and Giambi is the DH for those two years.   Then, in 2006, they have Beltre and A-Rod to play 3B and need a SS.   But I guess one of them can go play RF or 2B.  

Yet, with all this nonsense, the Yankees were making the playoffs without doing any of it.  Jeter at SS wasn't the reason they weren't winning the WS.

I guess one question that's not being asked or answered is: would ARod have "outgrown" the SS position had he stayed there?

Maybe he decided that now that he was a 3B, he could afford to bulk up a bit more physically than he would have had he stayed at SS.  After all, he was all about the HR.

It's all a game of "what if", but we can't just take what DID happen and assume that it would have been inevitable had the circumstances been different.