All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Derek Jeter's Last Stand
3/6/2014 12:16 PM
As someone who watched far too much baseball back then, he was well below average and quite possibly the worst in the majors at that time.    As to whether his bat made up for it, we could debate that while we're debating whether or not Jeter's bat made up for his glove in the same time period.
3/6/2014 12:26 PM
Did you ever see Mike Piazza play 1B?

I could've put a Little Leaguer out there and he would've caught more throws.
3/6/2014 12:35 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/6/2014 12:16:00 PM (view original):
As someone who watched far too much baseball back then, he was well below average and quite possibly the worst in the majors at that time.    As to whether his bat made up for it, we could debate that while we're debating whether or not Jeter's bat made up for his glove in the same time period.
He wasn't good, but he wasn't the worst. In 2003, 34 first basemen played at least 500 innings in the field. Giambi was 21st by UZR. Guys like Carlos Pena, Carlos Delgado, Richie Sexson, and Jim Thome were all  worse.

In 2008 he compared less favorably but Prince Fielder, Sexson, and James Loney were among the handful worse than him.

And anyway, he was already playing a lot of first base for the Yankees. They wouldn't have been losing much to throw him out there for another couple hundred innings.
3/6/2014 12:37 PM
The "problem" with advanced stats in this case(and most of them) is everything won't show up.   Giambi being in the wrong spot on a cut-off, Giambi refusing to throw home for the force instead choosing to tag 1B, Giambi breaking towards 2B on a grounder and leaving no one to cover 1st.

I'm sure he knew his limitations so he wouldn't force a throw or put himself in a position where he'd make a bad one but he was really bad at 1B. 
3/6/2014 12:49 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/6/2014 12:37:00 PM (view original):
The "problem" with advanced stats in this case(and most of them) is everything won't show up.   Giambi being in the wrong spot on a cut-off, Giambi refusing to throw home for the force instead choosing to tag 1B, Giambi breaking towards 2B on a grounder and leaving no one to cover 1st.

I'm sure he knew his limitations so he wouldn't force a throw or put himself in a position where he'd make a bad one but he was really bad at 1B. 
The "problem" (why are we using quotation marks?) with not using stats and just relying on your memory is that your memory is a million times more flawed than the stats.

We've been over this before so I'll keep it brief, but it's unlikely you saw every play Giambi made or didn't make, and even if you did, it's even more unlikely you remember anything but the most remarkable plays several years later, and even if you somehow remembered all the unremarkable times Giambi did something right, it's even less likely that you saw and remembered the plays for all the other first basemen so that you had something to compare Giambi's defense to (also ignoring the fact that you aren't a scout or professional evaluator and you had limited access to video footage of Giambi's defense).

Maybe everything doesn't show up in the stats (not everything does) but even less (much, much, much, much less) shows up in your memories of Giambi's defense.
3/6/2014 12:51 PM
Good news, though. We'll soon have stats that literally catch everything on defense.




3/6/2014 1:06 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 3/6/2014 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/6/2014 12:37:00 PM (view original):
The "problem" with advanced stats in this case(and most of them) is everything won't show up.   Giambi being in the wrong spot on a cut-off, Giambi refusing to throw home for the force instead choosing to tag 1B, Giambi breaking towards 2B on a grounder and leaving no one to cover 1st.

I'm sure he knew his limitations so he wouldn't force a throw or put himself in a position where he'd make a bad one but he was really bad at 1B. 
The "problem" (why are we using quotation marks?) with not using stats and just relying on your memory is that your memory is a million times more flawed than the stats.

We've been over this before so I'll keep it brief, but it's unlikely you saw every play Giambi made or didn't make, and even if you did, it's even more unlikely you remember anything but the most remarkable plays several years later, and even if you somehow remembered all the unremarkable times Giambi did something right, it's even less likely that you saw and remembered the plays for all the other first basemen so that you had something to compare Giambi's defense to (also ignoring the fact that you aren't a scout or professional evaluator and you had limited access to video footage of Giambi's defense).

Maybe everything doesn't show up in the stats (not everything does) but even less (much, much, much, much less) shows up in your memories of Giambi's defense.
Because you won't accept that there is a "problem" with your advanced metrics.   There's no point in arguing it with you as you'll say "Maybe but he was still 21st out of 34.   So, even if it's 10% off, he's still top 25."    And he very well may be.   Can't say I saw enough of all 34 players to rank them individually.

Nonetheless, I'll go by what I saw, recall the fact that he made it very well-known that he didn't want to just DH when he signed(Why would he say that if he didn't recognize that's where he should be?) and point to all the DH AB he got as a Yankee as evidence that I'm not far off. 

I'll mention once again that stats are nice to get an overall view of a player's ability.    But you have to watch a game every now and then.   Lonnie Smith hesitating at 2B doesn't show up in a box score but it might have cost the Braves a WS game.   "The flip" gave Jeter an assist but the play was much bigger than a flip to 2B to start a double play.   Missing a cut-off man and allowing an extra base isn't a box score play.   The list of things you need to see is huge.   
3/6/2014 1:19 PM
Of course there are problems with defensive stats. My argument is that they are still better than your memory of a players defensive abilities from a decade ago.

Obviously I like defensive stats because I never want to watch a baseball game, ever. In fact I hate baseball, which is why I like stats. Anyone who relies on baseball stats during an argument about baseball clearly doesn't like watching baseball.
I'll mention once again that stats are nice to get an overall view of a player's ability.    But you have to watch a game every now and then.   Lonnie Smith hesitating at 2B doesn't show up in a box score but it might have cost the Braves a WS game.   "The flip" gave Jeter an assist but the play was much bigger than a flip to 2B to start a double play.   Missing a cut-off man and allowing an extra base isn't a box score play.   The list of things you need to see is huge.   

 
Thank you for the giant non-sequitur. Mickey Mantle hit a lot of home runs, but his Home Run numbers and high slugging percentage don't tell you about the time he struck out with RISP and two outs in the 9th. Clearly you need to watch a baseball game and stop relying on stats.
3/6/2014 2:18 PM
I'll argue that you don't know me.  I may have a photographic memory.  I may remember every play from every Yankee game in 1978,    Or maybe I won't. 

But we both know that a pitcher being slow to cover 1B won't show up in your stats.    So we can't argue that. 
3/6/2014 2:20 PM
So, either way, Giambi was brutal at 1B.   Was he 21st?  25th?  34th?   88th?   Don't know.  But he was not "serviceable". 
3/6/2014 2:25 PM
Meh, "serviceable" can mean a lot of things.  If he's 25th out of 30 fielding, but he's 5th in hitting, that's "serviceable" to some.
3/6/2014 2:34 PM
If you're moving foundations in the name of better defense, hitting isn't the reason for doing it.  
3/6/2014 2:41 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/6/2014 2:34:00 PM (view original):
If you're moving foundations in the name of better defense, hitting isn't the reason for doing it.  
I think I said a couple times that the real benefit of a move like this would have been replacing Tony Clark or Tino Martinez or whoever in the lineup with Adrian Beltre. The fact that Jeter gets moved away from short is just a small side benefit.
3/6/2014 2:47 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/6/2014 2:18:00 PM (view original):
I'll argue that you don't know me.  I may have a photographic memory.  I may remember every play from every Yankee game in 1978,    Or maybe I won't. 

But we both know that a pitcher being slow to cover 1B won't show up in your stats.    So we can't argue that. 
You could argue that you have a photographic memory, but I think it's unlikely to be true.

3/6/2014 2:47 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 3/6/2014 2:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 3/6/2014 2:34:00 PM (view original):
If you're moving foundations in the name of better defense, hitting isn't the reason for doing it.  
I think I said a couple times that the real benefit of a move like this would have been replacing Tony Clark or Tino Martinez or whoever in the lineup with Adrian Beltre. The fact that Jeter gets moved away from short is just a small side benefit.
As much as you want to argue with me, this really isn't your argument.    It's been directed at nomar who suggested signing Beltre(I assume nomar knows Beltre signs with Yanks if they offer), playing A-Rod at SS, moving Jeter to LF and Matsui to DH(I thought he included 1B but he says he didn't). 

Either way, it's not your argument so no need to defend the logic.
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