Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/29/2014 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Seems like you're still arguing that it's better to make less outs and get more hits.

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm arguing.

How many hits result from strikeouts?  How many outs results from strikeouts?

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are no worse than a ball in play.

I think he's literally spent half this thread trying to tell you that this is wrong, even though it's not something that's ever been said.

I know. It's insane.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Look at the guys who strike out a lot.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Look at the guys who have a low strikeout %.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Which group has the better hitters?

Pick a group you'd like on your team, defense aside.


Top 10 in K%         OPS

Chris Carter          .770
Mike Napoli           .842
Adam Dunn           .762
Pedro Alvarez        .770
Chris Davis          1.004
Mark Trumbo         .747
Jay Bruce               .807
Justin Upton         .818
Alfonso Soriano   .791
Marlon Byrd           .847

Bottom 10 in K%   OPS

Norichika Aoki      .726
Martin Prado         .750
A. Simmons          .692
Victor Martinez      .785
Ian Kinsler             .757
E. Encarnacion     .904
Erick Aybar             .683
Alexi Ramirez        .693
Dustin Pedroia     .787
Nick Markakis       .685

That is not 100 players. 

It is not.  It's 10.  100 is a lot and too much to ask for.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/29/2014 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Seems like you're still arguing that it's better to make less outs and get more hits.

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm arguing.

How many hits result from strikeouts?  How many outs results from strikeouts?

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are no worse than a ball in play.

I think he's literally spent half this thread trying to tell you that this is wrong, even though it's not something that's ever been said.

Then, with two strikes, wouldn't the better approach be to put the ball in play?

How do you know they aren't taking that approach?

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Look at the guys who strike out a lot.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Look at the guys who have a low strikeout %.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Which group has the better hitters?

Pick a group you'd like on your team, defense aside.


Top 10 in K%         OPS

Chris Carter          .770
Mike Napoli           .842
Adam Dunn           .762
Pedro Alvarez        .770
Chris Davis          1.004
Mark Trumbo         .747
Jay Bruce               .807
Justin Upton         .818
Alfonso Soriano   .791
Marlon Byrd           .847

Bottom 10 in K%   OPS

Norichika Aoki      .726
Martin Prado         .750
A. Simmons          .692
Victor Martinez      .785
Ian Kinsler             .757
E. Encarnacion     .904
Erick Aybar             .683
Alexi Ramirez        .693
Dustin Pedroia     .787
Nick Markakis       .685

That is not 100 players. 

It is not.  It's 10.  100 is a lot and too much to ask for.

Can we call this "small sample size" and just forget about it?

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/29/2014 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Seems like you're still arguing that it's better to make less outs and get more hits.

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm arguing.

How many hits result from strikeouts?  How many outs results from strikeouts?

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are no worse than a ball in play.

I think he's literally spent half this thread trying to tell you that this is wrong, even though it's not something that's ever been said.

Then, with two strikes, wouldn't the better approach be to put the ball in play?

Yes, it's better to put the ball in play than to strike out.

****, I said I wouldn't say that again.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Look at the guys who strike out a lot.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Look at the guys who have a low strikeout %.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Which group has the better hitters?

Pick a group you'd like on your team, defense aside.


Top 10 in K%         OPS

Chris Carter          .770
Mike Napoli           .842
Adam Dunn           .762
Pedro Alvarez        .770
Chris Davis          1.004
Mark Trumbo         .747
Jay Bruce               .807
Justin Upton         .818
Alfonso Soriano   .791
Marlon Byrd           .847

Bottom 10 in K%   OPS

Norichika Aoki      .726
Martin Prado         .750
A. Simmons          .692
Victor Martinez      .785
Ian Kinsler             .757
E. Encarnacion     .904
Erick Aybar             .683
Alexi Ramirez        .693
Dustin Pedroia     .787
Nick Markakis       .685

That is not 100 players. 

It is not.  It's 10.  100 is a lot and too much to ask for.

Can we call this "small sample size" and just forget about it?

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and just call it even and not a win for the players who struck out at a higher rate than anyone with 550+ PAs in baseball last year.

If that's true, then it looks like it helps the case of "Ks are just any other out in the long run."

Uggla and BJ Upton whiff about once every 3 AB.    I get why Uggla isn't on that list(the Braves don't even want to play him because he's so bad) but why isn't Upton?

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/29/2014 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Seems like you're still arguing that it's better to make less outs and get more hits.

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm arguing.

How many hits result from strikeouts?  How many outs results from strikeouts?

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are no worse than a ball in play.

I think he's literally spent half this thread trying to tell you that this is wrong, even though it's not something that's ever been said.

Then, with two strikes, wouldn't the better approach be to put the ball in play?

Yes, it's better to put the ball in play than to strike out.

****, I said I wouldn't say that again.

Then what are you arguing, burnsyluck?

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
Look at the guys who strike out a lot.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Look at the guys who have a low strikeout %.  Take the top 100 and look at their average rate stats.

Which group has the better hitters?

Pick a group you'd like on your team, defense aside.


Top 10 in K%         OPS

Chris Carter          .770
Mike Napoli           .842
Adam Dunn           .762
Pedro Alvarez        .770
Chris Davis          1.004
Mark Trumbo         .747
Jay Bruce               .807
Justin Upton         .818
Alfonso Soriano   .791
Marlon Byrd           .847

Bottom 10 in K%   OPS

Norichika Aoki      .726
Martin Prado         .750
A. Simmons          .692
Victor Martinez      .785
Ian Kinsler             .757
E. Encarnacion     .904
Erick Aybar             .683
Alexi Ramirez        .693
Dustin Pedroia     .787
Nick Markakis       .685

That is not 100 players. 

It is not.  It's 10.  100 is a lot and too much to ask for.

Can we call this "small sample size" and just forget about it?

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and just call it even and not a win for the players who struck out at a higher rate than anyone with 550+ PAs in baseball last year.

If that's true, then it looks like it helps the case of "Ks are just any other out in the long run."

Using my Uggla/BJ Upton examples, isn't it possible that some players strikeout so much that their teams just won't play them full-time.    You know, preventing them from getting 550 PA?

K rate and OPS don't tell the entire story, no?

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/29/2014 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Seems like you're still arguing that it's better to make less outs and get more hits.

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm arguing.

How many hits result from strikeouts?  How many outs results from strikeouts?

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are no worse than a ball in play.

I think he's literally spent half this thread trying to tell you that this is wrong, even though it's not something that's ever been said.

Then, with two strikes, wouldn't the better approach be to put the ball in play?

Yes, it's better to put the ball in play than to strike out.

****, I said I wouldn't say that again.

Then what are you arguing, burnsyluck?

That strikeouts are pretty much just like any other OUT.

Strikeouts are NOT pretty much like any other BALL IN PLAY.

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/29/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/29/2014 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/29/2014 1:08:00 PM (view original):
Seems like you're still arguing that it's better to make less outs and get more hits.

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm arguing.

How many hits result from strikeouts?  How many outs results from strikeouts?

No one has ever argued that strikeouts are no worse than a ball in play.

I think he's literally spent half this thread trying to tell you that this is wrong, even though it's not something that's ever been said.

Then, with two strikes, wouldn't the better approach be to put the ball in play?

Yes, it's better to put the ball in play than to strike out.

****, I said I wouldn't say that again.

Then what are you arguing, burnsyluck?

That strikeouts are pretty much just like any other OUT.

Strikeouts are NOT pretty much like any other BALL IN PLAY.

So it's better to put the ball in play than strike out?

How do you propose players do this?

Regarding the top 100 K's vs the bottom 100 k's, there aren't enough players that get enough PA's to do a one year analysis. But you can do it for multiple years. Going from 2011 to 2013 gives you just enough to evaluate 100 different batter seasons on each side.

The 100 individual seasons with the fewest K's produced a .286/.347/.440 line. The OPS was .787 and the HR total was 1731.
The 100 individual seasons with the most K's produced a .270/.346/.465 line. The OPS was .811 and the HR total was 2501.

I'd rather have line 2.

Thanks, BL.

But yes Mike, the guys who strike out a lot and also don't get on base don't get the PAs.  But you can be a guy who doesn't strike out a lot and also don't get the PAs.  I'll do a 300-550 PA look for last year to include Upton and Uggla, gimme a few.  And I know it's a small sample, but it would be interesting to see.

It's better to put the ball in play than to strike out.  It's also better to hit the ball hard than to bunt the ball back to the pitcher.  There are different "levels" to putting the ball in play.

I won't disagree with that.   An unproductive player isn't going to get full-time AB.   I'm not sure your 300-550 is going to prove anything.