All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Adrian Beltre
7/24/2014 11:53 AM
Defense is irrelevant if he gets 3000 hits.  He's in the HOF whether he's "deserving" or not.    Even phrased as "150 hits over 20 seasons", 3000 hits is still a milestone that means something.    The real debate is whether one wants to include the likes of Adrian Beltre amongst the greatest of all-time.    I don't.   I didn't want to include Dave Kingman when 400 homers got you in.   I didn't want to include Tom Glavine because he got 300 wins. 

As for your examples, you just listed two players who are considered the best defenders, at their position, of all-time.    Let's not put Beltre in that group. 
7/24/2014 12:06 PM
 " The real debate is whether one wants to include the likes of Adrian Beltre amongst the greatest of all-time.    I don't"
Why not?



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7/24/2014 12:22 PM
Well, I said "considered".   I guess you don't consider him to be the best defensive SS of all-time.   Would you like to compile a list?   I think, when talking HOF-caliber, that we can leave out the Gene Michaels, Bud Harrelsons, etc, etc of the world.    Maybe stick to 87+ OPS types.
7/24/2014 12:34 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
Please list the "offensive" positions in order of "offense produced".
Corner outfielders and first basemen seem to be more "offensive" positions.  There aren't too many fantastic offensive third basemen in history.
7/24/2014 12:42 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
Please list the "offensive" positions in order of "offense produced".
Corner outfielders and first basemen seem to be more "offensive" positions.  There aren't too many fantastic offensive third basemen in history.
Don't you think the definitions have changed over the years?    I can name players from "defensive" positions who can hit and "offensive" positions that can't.    The league isn't "OK, we put two fast guys at 1, 2 in the order.  Then our 1B, DH and LF will hit.   Then we'll fill in the rest."
7/24/2014 12:50 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
Please list the "offensive" positions in order of "offense produced".
Corner outfielders and first basemen seem to be more "offensive" positions.  There aren't too many fantastic offensive third basemen in history.
Don't you think the definitions have changed over the years?    I can name players from "defensive" positions who can hit and "offensive" positions that can't.    The league isn't "OK, we put two fast guys at 1, 2 in the order.  Then our 1B, DH and LF will hit.   Then we'll fill in the rest."
Positions like 1b and corner outfield are traditionally more offensive positions because it's easier to play those positions. Because more people can play 1b than 3b, you get bigger bats at 1b.
7/24/2014 3:54 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):
Almost nobody on here seems to think about defense at all.  It's been brought up from time to time by proponents of Beltre and virtually ignored by his opponents.  Except one time when Cobra said "4 GG" as if the number of GG awards won has anything to do with how good you actually are at defense.

Obviously, some HOF voters DO think about defense.  Brooks Robinson's career OPS+ was 104, and he went in first ballot.  Ozzie Smith had a career OPS+ of 87.  What?  First ballot?  Oh.
Gold gloves are like starters in the all star game
Mostly, they get it right.
7/24/2014 4:19 PM
Posted by cobra on 7/24/2014 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):
Almost nobody on here seems to think about defense at all.  It's been brought up from time to time by proponents of Beltre and virtually ignored by his opponents.  Except one time when Cobra said "4 GG" as if the number of GG awards won has anything to do with how good you actually are at defense.

Obviously, some HOF voters DO think about defense.  Brooks Robinson's career OPS+ was 104, and he went in first ballot.  Ozzie Smith had a career OPS+ of 87.  What?  First ballot?  Oh.
Gold gloves are like starters in the all star game
Mostly, they get it right.
Well, with a few exceptions (Jeter and Michael Young come to mind), the GG isn't usually given to bad fielders. But it also isn't usually given to the best fielder. It's usually given to a good fielder who is also a good hitter. It's not a great way to evaluate someone.



7/24/2014 4:23 PM
Posted by cobra on 7/24/2014 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):
Almost nobody on here seems to think about defense at all.  It's been brought up from time to time by proponents of Beltre and virtually ignored by his opponents.  Except one time when Cobra said "4 GG" as if the number of GG awards won has anything to do with how good you actually are at defense.

Obviously, some HOF voters DO think about defense.  Brooks Robinson's career OPS+ was 104, and he went in first ballot.  Ozzie Smith had a career OPS+ of 87.  What?  First ballot?  Oh.
Gold gloves are like starters in the all star game
Mostly, they get it right.
Rafael Palmeiro won a GG in 1999 and played like 20 games at 1B.
7/24/2014 4:30 PM
I'll assume you're unfamiliar with "mostly".

7/24/2014 4:56 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/24/2014 4:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/24/2014 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):
Almost nobody on here seems to think about defense at all.  It's been brought up from time to time by proponents of Beltre and virtually ignored by his opponents.  Except one time when Cobra said "4 GG" as if the number of GG awards won has anything to do with how good you actually are at defense.

Obviously, some HOF voters DO think about defense.  Brooks Robinson's career OPS+ was 104, and he went in first ballot.  Ozzie Smith had a career OPS+ of 87.  What?  First ballot?  Oh.
Gold gloves are like starters in the all star game
Mostly, they get it right.
Well, with a few exceptions (Jeter and Michael Young come to mind), the GG isn't usually given to bad fielders. But it also isn't usually given to the best fielder. It's usually given to a good fielder who is also a good hitter. It's not a great way to evaluate someone.



"It's usually given to a good fielder who is also a good hitter. It's not a great way to evaluate someone."

Say that out loud.  Then ponder the stupidity of what you just said.
7/24/2014 5:02 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/24/2014 4:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 7/24/2014 4:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/24/2014 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 11:49:00 AM (view original):
Almost nobody on here seems to think about defense at all.  It's been brought up from time to time by proponents of Beltre and virtually ignored by his opponents.  Except one time when Cobra said "4 GG" as if the number of GG awards won has anything to do with how good you actually are at defense.

Obviously, some HOF voters DO think about defense.  Brooks Robinson's career OPS+ was 104, and he went in first ballot.  Ozzie Smith had a career OPS+ of 87.  What?  First ballot?  Oh.
Gold gloves are like starters in the all star game
Mostly, they get it right.
Well, with a few exceptions (Jeter and Michael Young come to mind), the GG isn't usually given to bad fielders. But it also isn't usually given to the best fielder. It's usually given to a good fielder who is also a good hitter. It's not a great way to evaluate someone.



"It's usually given to a good fielder who is also a good hitter. It's not a great way to evaluate someone."

Say that out loud.  Then ponder the stupidity of what you just said.
What's wrong with that? When I say "evaluate someone," I'm referring to their defense.
7/24/2014 8:45 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 4:30:00 PM (view original):
I'll assume you're unfamiliar with "mostly".

Ha
7/24/2014 9:01 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 12:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't think Ozzie Smith was close to the best defender of all time at the SS position.  He was a flashy show-off.  But best defensive SS of all time?  No.  A better SS than Beltre is a 3B?  Hard for me to say...
Curiosity got the best of me.

Who do you think the greatest defensive shortstop is baseball was/is?
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