All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Cam Newton GOAT Thread
11/11/2011 10:55 AM
Posted by moranis on 11/11/2011 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Frankly there have been so many NBA players with far greater rookies seasons then Cam that you can just get rid of any talk of major sports history.

As for football, no, but at least you could make an argument that Cam would be in that discussion (if he continues along at a similar pace). 

I mean Jim Brown won the AP MVP as a rookie and did so by leading the league in Rushing Yards (he had 942 next closest was 700), Rushing TD's (9 next closest 7),  Rushing Yards per game (78.5, next 58.3), he was 4th in Yards from Scrimmage, 6th in All Purpose Yards, 2nd in touches, etc.  I'd say a MVP season eclipses Cam.

I disagree because QB is so much more important than RB, and RB's have no business winning MVP anyway.   RB is also an easier position to pick up, as rookies routinely have solid years.

Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL.  Really I think the only performance who comes close is Marino, but I still would probs give the edge to Cam.

There haven't been that many better NBA rookies.

11/11/2011 10:55 AM
You're doing what Tebow's supporters are doing with him. Ignoring the negatives to make the positives look better. Newton's a good QB - best rookie of all time, not at all.
11/11/2011 10:56 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 11/11/2011 10:46:00 AM (view original):
Yes, but you're forgetting one thing.

Your argument wasn't that Cam is a good QB...it's that he's having the greatest rookie season of all time.  Sure, Brady has 10 picks this year - but you don't hear anyone saying he's having the best season for an NFL QB ever (or even the best season of his career).  THAT is the difference.

Is Cam's TD/INT ratio evidence he's a bad QB? No. But it's evidence he's not having the greatest rookie season ever, which was your argument.
Name 3 QB's that had better rookie seasons.
11/11/2011 11:01 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 11/11/2011 10:55:00 AM (view original):
You're doing what Tebow's supporters are doing with him. Ignoring the negatives to make the positives look better. Newton's a good QB - best rookie of all time, not at all.
Cam doesn't really have any negatives, just non-positives.

TD%+: 95
INT%+: 96

Those are barely below average.  Like I said his rushing TD's atone for his lack of passing TD's, and slightly below average INT rate is actually pretty good for a rookie QB.  Look at past rookie QB performance- they're all either riding pine or sucking ***.

Tebow has glaringly huge flaws that you can't help but notice.  Cam doesn't.

Football's a team game so W/L shouldn't enter the equation in player valuation.

11/11/2011 11:12 AM
rookie season INT%'s

Peyton: 4.9%
Rape: 3.7%
Cam: 3.1%

The only person with a favorable INT rate is Matty Ice at 2.5%.  He also threw 8 less passes a game and played for a team that leaned heavily on their running game.

Cam is not only excelling in a pass happy offense, but he's also the Panthers' feature back.
11/11/2011 11:23 AM
Posted by deanod on 11/11/2011 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moranis on 11/11/2011 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Frankly there have been so many NBA players with far greater rookies seasons then Cam that you can just get rid of any talk of major sports history.

As for football, no, but at least you could make an argument that Cam would be in that discussion (if he continues along at a similar pace). 

I mean Jim Brown won the AP MVP as a rookie and did so by leading the league in Rushing Yards (he had 942 next closest was 700), Rushing TD's (9 next closest 7),  Rushing Yards per game (78.5, next 58.3), he was 4th in Yards from Scrimmage, 6th in All Purpose Yards, 2nd in touches, etc.  I'd say a MVP season eclipses Cam.

I disagree because QB is so much more important than RB, and RB's have no business winning MVP anyway.   RB is also an easier position to pick up, as rookies routinely have solid years.

Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL.  Really I think the only performance who comes close is Marino, but I still would probs give the edge to Cam.

There haven't been that many better NBA rookies.

So your question is whether or not Cam is having the best rookie season ever, in any sport, but you discount examples from other sports and other positions within the NFL.

Perhaps you should change your question to "Is Cam having the best season ever for a rookie NFL QB".  In that case, you might actually get close to a yes.
11/11/2011 11:32 AM
I was joking about the any sport thing, but I do think the interesting debate is whether he is in the midst of the best rookie season in NFL history.

And of ******* course I'm going to discount other positions when he plays by far the most important position in football.  On average the best RB in the NFL is probably as valuable as like the 9th or 10th best QB, from a logical standpoint they should never be in the discussion for MVP w/o having a historically great year.

11/11/2011 11:32 AM
Dean...  greatest ever should mean there isnt one QB better in their rookie season.  I can name 2 off the top of my head.  Dan Marino & Ben Roethlisberger.  I will go to profootballreference.com and get stats to back that up.
11/11/2011 11:34 AM
I've said that Marino is close, don't think Roethlisberger compares.
11/11/2011 11:36 AM
Dan Marino - 58.4% completion percentage  2210 yds  20 TD  6 INT in 9 starts with a 7-2 record.

Ben Roethlisberger  66.4% completion percentage  2621 yds  17 TD  11 INT with a 13-0 record.

And I should have looked up Joe Flacco.  He was 11-5 as a rookie with decent stats.  All better than Cam Newton.  Cam is the best QB this year.  Not of all time. 
11/11/2011 11:38 AM
Meh.  Flacco was slightly above ordinary.  Just won.  (which is important ya know, Deano...  lol)
11/11/2011 11:39 AM
Rape had better per play efficiency, but he also threw 21 passes a game to Newton's 36.

 

That is a monumental difference- defenses gameplanned for Pittsburgh to pound the run over and over again, whereas the gameplan against Carolina entire revolves around Cam Newton.  I definitely think that Rape's efficiency counts for a lot, but given such an absurd difference in volume plus Cam's superior rushing abilitiy I think Newton has to have the edge.

11/11/2011 11:42 AM
Posted by eschwartz67 on 11/11/2011 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Meh.  Flacco was slightly above ordinary.  Just won.  (which is important ya know, Deano...  lol)

Meh, I don't like bringing up w/l because it allows so many other factors into the equation.

I don't think Roethlisberger would be able to step into the Panthers' offense and win games as a rookie.

Cam is holding up his end of the bargain- look at the difference in offensive production from the Panthers' offense from last year to this year.  Not much else has changed other than the fact they add 2 league average TE's.

11/11/2011 11:46 AM
So far we've established that passing yards and pass attempts/game are important (since Cam is high in both), but INTs, TD/INT ratio and wins are not important, since Cam doesn't score well in those categories.

Anymore criteria you arbitrarily use to define a good QB, deano?
11/11/2011 11:51 AM
My only issue with Newton is that he's had quite a few chances now to tie/take the lead at the end of the game and hasn't converted.
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