All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/16/2013 2:20 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 12:17:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, you're wearing some serious Brady goggles.

Thomas/Moore - undrafted FA
Colston - 7th round pick
Bush -never a full season
Graham - new to the game
Brady was a 7th round pick.  I'm not sure what draft position has to do with anything.

Bush was active in most games he played with Brees.  I recognize he was injury-prone.

Yes, Graham has had 2 fantastic seasons with Brees.
Undrafted players are generally viewed as les talented than drafted players.    I assume you follow the NFL a little and understand this.

IOW, a system/QB can make an "untalented" player into a perennial pro bowler(Welker qualifies as he too was undrafted).   Just because you "like" a player doesn't mean the people that know also liked him or, if you will, viewed him as a NFL player.  

1/16/2013 2:23 PM
Dilfer won a SB because he played with arguably the best defense in the history of the game.  He had 12 TDs and 11 picks in 8 games. He actually wasn't very good at "not screwing up." The fact that you compare Brady to Dilfer is nauseating.

Brady has played with great defenses, great receivers, great running backs, and offensive lines that never let him get touched.

I compare Brady to Dilfer because I find it to be the most accurate comparison for what Brady does. Take away the influence hype has no doubt had on you and you can see he's like a younger, slightly more talented and PHENOMENALLY MORE HYPED version of Dilfer.
You are overhyping the Pats o-line.  They've always been very good, but I don't think I'd ever call them the best in the league in any particular year. 
Brady consistently has all day to throw throughout his career. On the few occasions when the offensive line does break down or someone invents a way to get around them and Brady does get hit, he absolutely sucks. The best and most notable evidence of this is in the first SB versus the Giants. The offensive juggernaut which averaged 26.8 points per game suddenly managed to score a whopping 14 points because Brady can't handle pressure because he's soft and too used to rarely getting touched.
And he doesn't make plays? I'm not sure you've seen him play.  I don't know where to go with that.
I've seen Brady play his whole career and he has never made one play that made me say "wow" the way the other players I named do on a regular and consistent basis. The plays he makes are plays any decent NFL QB could make if he also had the same team around him.
I'm trying to look at the other points you made but it really appears that there's a lot of words and not much substance.  Be more succinct, please.
Please. I named several specific failings Brady has had.
Seriously, block him now, or do it later and regret the time you lost in between.
People do tend to run away from trying to debate me on my non-mainstream viewpoints, as I defend them so well it frustrates people to no end. I'd like to think you're better than that, burnsy, especially since you haven't shown the level of ignorance that many of them so routinely display.
1/16/2013 2:25 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 12:17:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, you're wearing some serious Brady goggles.

Thomas/Moore - undrafted FA
Colston - 7th round pick
Bush -never a full season
Graham - new to the game
Brady was a 7th round pick.  I'm not sure what draft position has to do with anything.

Bush was active in most games he played with Brees.  I recognize he was injury-prone.

Yes, Graham has had 2 fantastic seasons with Brees.
Undrafted players are generally viewed as les talented than drafted players.    I assume you follow the NFL a little and understand this.

IOW, a system/QB can make an "untalented" player into a perennial pro bowler(Welker qualifies as he too was undrafted).   Just because you "like" a player doesn't mean the people that know also liked him or, if you will, viewed him as a NFL player.  

I get that.  But you have to use your eyes, too.  Mark Ingram is a 1st round pick, but when I watch him play, compared to Thomas, I think the undrafted RB is better.  Much better, actually.  Colston is also a very talented WR, regardless of his draft position.  It hurt him on draft day that he went to Hofstra and nobody saw him play against great competition.  
1/16/2013 2:25 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moranis on 1/16/2013 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Kevin Faulk was an excellent receiving RB (never had less than 2 catches a game and was often above 3 during his hey day).  Played with Brady for Brady's entire career, though obviously is a bench player now.  He was not however during the Superbowl runs, perfect season, etc.  It is also a bit odd that by far his most productive season was when Cassel was under center (500+ yards on over 6 a carry with 58 catches for another 480+).  Some of that is Maroney got hurt, but still a bit strange. 

Deion Branch was a far superior player to guys like Pierre Garcon (during his time in Indy).  Branch just couldn't stay healthy in Seattle.  Ben Watson is a pretty good TE as well.

I guess the point is that there was a lot more talent in NE than people want to give credit for, but Brady and Bill certainly elevated those around them.  They just weren't total scrubs.  Heck even a guy like Maroney was a pretty darn good RB before the injuries. 

Also keep in mind, it wasn't like Brady was setting the world on fire until Moss and Welker showed up.  His Career TD to INT ratio wasn't even better than 2 to 1 until that 2007 season, he is at almost 3 to 1 now. 
Kevin Faulk doesn't have the talent Reggie Bush had or Darren Sproles has.  If we're comparing catches, Bush and Sproles average about 5 a game.

I would suggest Garcon, and Branch, when he was playing, and at his peak, were at similar levels.  I think you're undervaluing Garcon's contributions.

I'm not trying to suggest the people Brady was playing with were total scrubs, and I recognize my choice of words earlier in describing some players was poor in that regard.  I'm arguing that Brady did more than less.  
No, you're arguing that Brady elevated the talentless hacks while Brees/Manning we're always loaded with weapons.

It's just not true if you exclude the Harrison/Wayne/Clark/James years. 
1/16/2013 2:27 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 12:17:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, you're wearing some serious Brady goggles.

Thomas/Moore - undrafted FA
Colston - 7th round pick
Bush -never a full season
Graham - new to the game
Brady was a 7th round pick.  I'm not sure what draft position has to do with anything.

Bush was active in most games he played with Brees.  I recognize he was injury-prone.

Yes, Graham has had 2 fantastic seasons with Brees.
Undrafted players are generally viewed as les talented than drafted players.    I assume you follow the NFL a little and understand this.

IOW, a system/QB can make an "untalented" player into a perennial pro bowler(Welker qualifies as he too was undrafted).   Just because you "like" a player doesn't mean the people that know also liked him or, if you will, viewed him as a NFL player.  

I get that.  But you have to use your eyes, too.  Mark Ingram is a 1st round pick, but when I watch him play, compared to Thomas, I think the undrafted RB is better.  Much better, actually.  Colston is also a very talented WR, regardless of his draft position.  It hurt him on draft day that he went to Hofstra and nobody saw him play against great competition.  
WHOA!

So what you see on Sundays is more than the talent evaluators, the ones who get paid to find NFL players, caught in 3-4 years of college ball?   Talent evaluators on 32 teams?

That's biz insane.
1/16/2013 2:30 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/16/2013 2:23:00 PM (view original):
Dilfer won a SB because he played with arguably the best defense in the history of the game.  He had 12 TDs and 11 picks in 8 games. He actually wasn't very good at "not screwing up." The fact that you compare Brady to Dilfer is nauseating.

Brady has played with great defenses, great receivers, great running backs, and offensive lines that never let him get touched.

I compare Brady to Dilfer because I find it to be the most accurate comparison for what Brady does. Take away the influence hype has no doubt had on you and you can see he's like a younger, slightly more talented and PHENOMENALLY MORE HYPED version of Dilfer.
You are overhyping the Pats o-line.  They've always been very good, but I don't think I'd ever call them the best in the league in any particular year. 
Brady consistently has all day to throw throughout his career. On the few occasions when the offensive line does break down or someone invents a way to get around them and Brady does get hit, he absolutely sucks. The best and most notable evidence of this is in the first SB versus the Giants. The offensive juggernaut which averaged 26.8 points per game suddenly managed to score a whopping 14 points because Brady can't handle pressure because he's soft and too used to rarely getting touched.
And he doesn't make plays? I'm not sure you've seen him play.  I don't know where to go with that.
I've seen Brady play his whole career and he has never made one play that made me say "wow" the way the other players I named do on a regular and consistent basis. The plays he makes are plays any decent NFL QB could make if he also had the same team around him.
I'm trying to look at the other points you made but it really appears that there's a lot of words and not much substance.  Be more succinct, please.
Please. I named several specific failings Brady has had.
Seriously, block him now, or do it later and regret the time you lost in between.
People do tend to run away from trying to debate me on my non-mainstream viewpoints, as I defend them so well it frustrates people to no end. I'd like to think you're better than that, burnsy, especially since you haven't shown the level of ignorance that many of them so routinely display.
Brady has played with very good defenses, he has a great head coach, and very good o-lines.  As I said before, he generally gets rid of the ball quickly, and I think that's one of the reasons he doesn't get touched much.  Peyton Manning is similar - I actually don't think he had great lines in Indy, but he was rarely sacked.  And yes, the Giants won the Super Bowl because they had the best pass rush in football.  When you look at other teams with great QBs, you generally find that they have had more to work with than Brady did.  You mentioned Dillon for one season, and a good o-line, when he won 3 Super Bowls before Welker.  I think that speaks to Brady's talent.

Even calling Brady "slightly more talented" than Dilfer is insulting.  Look up the numbers.  
1/16/2013 2:31 PM
Jerry Rice went to Miss Valley St.  Somehow they managed to find him and draft him in the first round.
Randy Moss went to Marshall.   Also a first rounder despite all the trouble.
1/16/2013 2:38 PM
Mike-

The replies are getting a little long, so I'll try to hit the points here.  

Who would you rather have as weapons:

Wayne/Garcon/Brown and Addai splitting carries (I'm looking at 2010...Clark was there until 2009 btw)
Branch/David Patten/Troy Brown/Faulk and Maroney

And yea, I feel I can watch a game and notice who's better.  I watched Brandon Jacobs split time with Ahmad Bradshaw with the Giants and wanted to pull my hair out because Bradshaw had talent and Jacobs had become crap on ice.

1/16/2013 2:40 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 2:31:00 PM (view original):
Jerry Rice went to Miss Valley St.  Somehow they managed to find him and draft him in the first round.
Randy Moss went to Marshall.   Also a first rounder despite all the trouble.
Yes, if you're the greatest receivers in the history of the game, you can make a splash even in small schools in college.

Players are drafted in the late rounds/undrafted all the time and make huge impacts.  
1/16/2013 2:43 PM
I'm past that now.   I don't think we disagree all that much.    That said, I think a lot of the players we're mentioning started their careers in the same place.  They were viewed as borderline NFL players by people who are paid handsomely to indentify NFL players.   You seem to think that the ones that NE got would have been nothing without Brady while the Indy/NO players were just overlooked.  Then you claim that you can see what the NFL talent evaluators could not.

And that, as I said, is biz insane.
1/16/2013 2:48 PM
Peyton Manning is similar - I actually don't think he had great lines in Indy, but he was rarely sacked.

That's because Peyton Manning is actually GOOD.

Peyton Manning is not only an elite QB but easily the best QB in the past 20 years if not all of NFL history. Peyton is so far above Brady that the light from Peyton would take 10 million years to reach Brady.

Like I said before, Brady is way more like Trent Dilfer than he has ever been like Peyton Manning.
Even calling Brady "slightly more talented" than Dilfer is insulting.  Look up the numbers. 
The numbers don't tell the whole story, because other than perhaps that Ravens team (and even that is questionable) Brady's teams were always better and the talent carried him.

Like I said, Brady is good but he isn't great or "elite". He's consistently better than average, but nothing outstanding.

1/16/2013 2:52 PM
I do think that Manning, Brees, etc, help the receivers they have succeed tremendously.  But yea, I still think the weapons Brady had were less talented.  And it's hard to figure out, I suppose.  Does the QB make the WR? Is it the other way around? Is it both? 

I don't think I'm a talent evaluator, but when I watch Thomas play, he seems better than their 1st round pick from a few years ago.  He seems like he makes more guys miss and breaks more tackles.  His yards per carry seems to back that up, though I recognize Ingram has only been in the league for 2 years.
1/16/2013 2:53 PM
I also think that Brady and Welker have a special relationship.  They could probably run some routes, both with their eyes closed, and make catches.
1/16/2013 2:57 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/16/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):
Peyton Manning is similar - I actually don't think he had great lines in Indy, but he was rarely sacked.

That's because Peyton Manning is actually GOOD.

Peyton Manning is not only an elite QB but easily the best QB in the past 20 years if not all of NFL history. Peyton is so far above Brady that the light from Peyton would take 10 million years to reach Brady.

Like I said before, Brady is way more like Trent Dilfer than he has ever been like Peyton Manning.
Even calling Brady "slightly more talented" than Dilfer is insulting.  Look up the numbers. 
The numbers don't tell the whole story, because other than perhaps that Ravens team (and even that is questionable) Brady's teams were always better and the talent carried him.

Like I said, Brady is good but he isn't great or "elite". He's consistently better than average, but nothing outstanding.

Numbers tell most of the story.  Dilfer threw more picks than TDs in his career.  There isn't much more to talk about.  Dilfer is lucky he had as long of a career as he had, usually guys like that don't start for very long.

EDIT: There were 3 years where Dilfer played at least half a season and had more TDs and INTs.  Three.
1/16/2013 3:02 PM
All I'm saying is many of the players we're mentioning started in the same place.   A place determined by the guys that get paid a lot to determine that place.  They miss on some(Brady/Leaf/Russell) but they hit on most.    It just seems insane to think they missed on the players on the Saints/Colts but nailed the ones the Patriots got.

I do think the slot guys were not part of the NFL system until Martz made 3-4 WR sets part of the "normal" NFL.    So it probably took awhile for the Welkers of the world to gain a foothold. Which is why someone like him could be overlooked and suddenly a star. 
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