All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/18/2013 11:14 AM (edited)
When people bring up a QB's weapons, they don't mention "opportunity." 

- "Matt Ryan has put up some great numbers this year.  A large part of that is because he has arguably the best receiving combo in football, in Jones and White."
- "You forgot to mention he has opportunity!!"
- "Huh?"

I also find it interesting that you're trying to argue that Brady's WRs and RBs aren't much different than the ones other elite QBs have had, but you're also arguing Brady might be the best QB of our era, despite putting up barely above-average numbers for the first half of his career.
1/18/2013 11:29 AM
If a QB doesn't throw the ball because his team is winning by 30, does he have an opportunity to rack up yards/TDs?

I do think Brady is one of the best in our era.   Winning is a big deal to me.   He won games despite putting up league average numbers in the first half of his career.  And, now, in the 2nd half of his career, he's winning games while putting up good numbers.

Of course, the debate is how important was he to winning those games.
1/18/2013 11:42 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 11:29:00 AM (view original):
If a QB doesn't throw the ball because his team is winning by 30, does he have an opportunity to rack up yards/TDs?

I do think Brady is one of the best in our era.   Winning is a big deal to me.   He won games despite putting up league average numbers in the first half of his career.  And, now, in the 2nd half of his career, he's winning games while putting up good numbers.

Of course, the debate is how important was he to winning those games.
Now his stats are league average.

If the quarterbacks I listed earlier played every game, where do you think Brady would have ranked? Is Romo, McNabb, Frye, Delhomme, Harrington, Young, Plummer, Leinart and Brunell all passing him to make him average?  Brady got opportunity to play every game, first because of another player's injury, but then because of the talent he shows and the success he had.

And yes, he won a lot of games.  Some is defense.  But some is his talent in leading his offense.
1/18/2013 11:46 AM
He's a winner.  Just like this guy:

1/18/2013 11:58 AM
In 2005 the Pats (as a team) ranked 2nd in yards (ahead of the Colts).  3rd in TDs and 4th in QB rating.

In 2006 (a year that had Gaffney and Caldwell as the WRs and Maroney/Faulk as RBs....that's brutal.  I watched every game.  Those guys dropped way to many passes)....Pats were 12th in yards, 7th in TDs and 7th in rating.  That's well above average....with well below average WR's.

2004 Pats were 11th in yards, 5th in TDs and 8th in rating

2003 They were 10th, 11th and 10th (His 2nd season as starter)

2002 12th, 2nd and 11th (1st year as starter....was 2nd in TDs!)


Facts are that Brady was above the average QB in his early years (with lesser talent....Troy Brown was good and underrated...but not a top 15-20 WR in the game in his prime).  Then Brady got some talent and since then he hasn't looked back.  
1/18/2013 11:59 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 11:46:00 AM (view original):
He's a winner.  Just like this guy:

Nope...Brady put up quality #'s.  Apples - oranges.  Nice try.
1/18/2013 12:07 PM
10th, 11th, 12th = slightly above league average, no?

The point is this:  Everyone has listed Brady at the top of the QB list since his first SB victory.   Much of that is built on winning games because, as we see, NE passing numbers aren't so outstanding.    Hell, I'm guilty of it.   I think Brady good/Rapelisberger sucks.    They're not that different.   And, despite that, I still take Brady 100 times out of 100 times. 
1/18/2013 12:12 PM
This is what I'm talking about. You under rate Brown as much as you over rate Brady. (You said this already.)

Yes, I said it multiple times so you'd get it.
Brown's stats don't lie in that 2001 season.  (Brown's don't, but Brady's do.  OK.)

Brown's stats are the product of getting open consistently because he was a good receiver.

 (You don't know the definition of safety valve. It's the pass you make, generally to a RB, when you can't find anyone open downfield and you need to get rid of the ball.  Brown was Brady's go to guy in 2001.)

Now you want to argue over semantics. The point is without Brown getting open consistently, Brady would have struggled more than he did.
That role is CRUCIAL for Brady, because if he didn't have the outlet receiver, he'd be far worse than he is now (argument doesn't apply, as Brown wasn't his safety valve.  If anything over his career, this player is Kevin Faulk.)

The argument DOES apply because you're arguing pointless semantics. If anything, you've added to the argument by naming Faulk as another player who assisted Brady and inflated his stats.
(Yes, if you take away Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, he wouldn't put up elite numbers like he has been, he'd probably put up closer numbers to 2001-2006.  Again, learn what "safety valve" means.)

Brady's numbers during the years you mention were not as great as you seem to portray them as being. Others have already pointed this out.
  (QB is a large part of winning games.)

Not nearly as large a part as they are given credit for in most scenarios.

This is true especially for Brady, who is considered "elite" largely based upon his team winning games, which I maintain would have happened no matter who was under center (and it DID happen when Cassell was QB, which proves this assertion correct).

most QBs get more credit than they deserve for team wins (I disagree, as they're the most important player on the field.  Teams who win games generally have good QBs)

Being the most important player on the field does not mean you won the game all by yourself.

The way people talk about Brady makes him sound like he snapped the ball to himself, blocked for himself, threw to himself, and scored every touchdown himself. He also must have played every defensive position and every special team position, because that's how much credit you and others give him. THAT is how over rated he is.
1/18/2013 12:46 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/18/2013 12:12:00 PM (view original):
This is what I'm talking about. You under rate Brown as much as you over rate Brady. (You said this already.)

Yes, I said it multiple times so you'd get it.
Brown's stats don't lie in that 2001 season.  (Brown's don't, but Brady's do.  OK.)

Brown's stats are the product of getting open consistently because he was a good receiver.

 (You don't know the definition of safety valve. It's the pass you make, generally to a RB, when you can't find anyone open downfield and you need to get rid of the ball.  Brown was Brady's go to guy in 2001.)

Now you want to argue over semantics. The point is without Brown getting open consistently, Brady would have struggled more than he did.
That role is CRUCIAL for Brady, because if he didn't have the outlet receiver, he'd be far worse than he is now (argument doesn't apply, as Brown wasn't his safety valve.  If anything over his career, this player is Kevin Faulk.)

The argument DOES apply because you're arguing pointless semantics. If anything, you've added to the argument by naming Faulk as another player who assisted Brady and inflated his stats.
(Yes, if you take away Moss, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, he wouldn't put up elite numbers like he has been, he'd probably put up closer numbers to 2001-2006.  Again, learn what "safety valve" means.)

Brady's numbers during the years you mention were not as great as you seem to portray them as being. Others have already pointed this out.
  (QB is a large part of winning games.)

Not nearly as large a part as they are given credit for in most scenarios.

This is true especially for Brady, who is considered "elite" largely based upon his team winning games, which I maintain would have happened no matter who was under center (and it DID happen when Cassell was QB, which proves this assertion correct).

most QBs get more credit than they deserve for team wins (I disagree, as they're the most important player on the field.  Teams who win games generally have good QBs)

Being the most important player on the field does not mean you won the game all by yourself.

The way people talk about Brady makes him sound like he snapped the ball to himself, blocked for himself, threw to himself, and scored every touchdown himself. He also must have played every defensive position and every special team position, because that's how much credit you and others give him. THAT is how over rated he is.
I'm not arguing pointlss semantics, you're telling me that Brady has relied on safety valves, and I don't understand what you mean. Brown was his best receiver, and he was pretty good, but most teams had better #1 receivers. Troy Brown and Kevin Faulk did not carry him. (Kevin Faulk inflated Brady's stats. Listen to what you're arguing)

As for Cassel proving your argument, it's 1 year. I also present Drew Bledsoe, who won 5 of his last 18 games, all under BB. It is accepted by most that Bledsoe was a better QB than Cassel is, and he struggled, even though Bledsoe had the mighty Troy Brown and Kevin Faulk on as team.
1/18/2013 1:34 PM
Randomness - Listening to sports radio while working, and one of the hosts is arguing for a Ravens win.  That with Gronk out, the Ravens have better offensive weapons than the Pats, and with a better defense, will get a win this time. Even with Aaron Hernandez, Wes Welker, and Steven Ridley on the Pats.  
1/18/2013 3:07 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/18/2013 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Randomness - Listening to sports radio while working, and one of the hosts is arguing for a Ravens win.  That with Gronk out, the Ravens have better offensive weapons than the Pats, and with a better defense, will get a win this time. Even with Aaron Hernandez, Wes Welker, and Steven Ridley on the Pats.  
BUT THE PATS HAVE AN ALL PRO TEAM!!!
1/18/2013 3:16 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 12:07:00 PM (view original):
10th, 11th, 12th = slightly above league average, no?

The point is this:  Everyone has listed Brady at the top of the QB list since his first SB victory.   Much of that is built on winning games because, as we see, NE passing numbers aren't so outstanding.    Hell, I'm guilty of it.   I think Brady good/Rapelisberger sucks.    They're not that different.   And, despite that, I still take Brady 100 times out of 100 times. 
His 1st year as a starter he was 2nd in the NFL in TD's.  Granted yards and rating were slightly above average.  Again, his 2nd year....1st as full time starter.

2nd season,  was clearly his worst (except for 2001 and 2008 when his knee exploded).

3rd season as starter he was 5th in TD's and 8th in rating....more than slightly above average.

His best season Pre-2007 was in 2005.  2nd in yards, 3rd in TDs and 4th rating.  That's elite.....especially with his offense.

WR's
Deion Branch - Quality WR....but not elite.  Middle of the pack WR.  Has great chemistry with Brady.
Troy Brown -  The end of his career.  Was below average at the time.
Bam Childress - Who?
Tim Dwight - Really?
David Givens - again....who?
David Patten - one more time...who?

TE's
Christian Fauria - Below average TE
Daniel Graham - Blocking TE with blocks for hands
Ben Watson - a extremely overrated TE.  Great speed with terrible hands and average route running.

So, Brady threw up elite #'s with that.  I'd argue that 2005 might have been his worst cast around him )other than maybe 2001-2002).
1/18/2013 3:30 PM
I'm not arguing pointlss semantics, you're telling me that Brady has relied on safety valves, and I don't understand what you mean.

The point I was making is that Brady has always had receivers who were able to bail him out because he couldn't make the necessary throws for bigger plays. You say "Brown wasn't a burner" and I say he didn't need to be a burner. All he had to be was a guy who could get open consistently because Brady wouldn't make many throws unless the guy was wide open or **** close to it. The only exception was when he was throwing to Moss, and really, anyone could have thrown some of those balls to a wide open Moss or tossed a few up and let Moss go get them.

You want to know how Brady is over rated?

Even when Brady screws up and blows a throw to someone who IS wide open, team mates and sports pundits alike are hesitant to blame him for what is absolutely his fault. 

Case in point: When Brady screwed up the throw to Wes Welker in the Super Bowl that would probably have won him a fourth ring, Welker took the blame, and even while putting the blame where it belongs (on Brady) ESPN's Skip Bayless still finds a way to praise Brady despite the fact that he just caused his team to lose the Super Bowl.

The team drags him to three Super Bowl victories a decade ago and everyone wants to call him "elite". He screws up in two more recent Super Bowls and directly causes his team to lose the last one, and even when people point that out, they still find a way to praise him.

RIDICULOUS. The guy screwed up and cost his team a Super Bowl win. Yet no one focuses on that. It's almost like everyone just forgets about Brady's **** ups.
If it's anyone else who misses that throw, they're tearing him to pieces. But not the almighty Brady. Let us all drink the Brady kool-aid! Wheee!
1/18/2013 3:33 PM
As a team, NE was simply just above average at throwing the ball until 2007.   Brady didn't elevate players at all.   I listed a group of those scrubs who did better elsewhere.    Simply fact of the matter is Brady was on a winning team and he wasn't causing them to lose.   He was above average but he somehow gained god-like status without doing much to get there. 

To be honest, I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on Brady.   I still think he's a very good QB, still top 3 in this era, I'm just not sure he earned it in his early years when he was automatically put there due to some playoff wins.   In all seriousness, Viniteri misses a couple of FGs and I don't think the Brady Legend is intact.
1/18/2013 3:58 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/18/2013 3:33:00 PM (view original):
As a team, NE was simply just above average at throwing the ball until 2007.   Brady didn't elevate players at all.   I listed a group of those scrubs who did better elsewhere.    Simply fact of the matter is Brady was on a winning team and he wasn't causing them to lose.   He was above average but he somehow gained god-like status without doing much to get there. 

To be honest, I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on Brady.   I still think he's a very good QB, still top 3 in this era, I'm just not sure he earned it in his early years when he was automatically put there due to some playoff wins.   In all seriousness, Viniteri misses a couple of FGs and I don't think the Brady Legend is intact.
Remind me what players again?

Gaffney - was a #2 receiever option everywhere else he went, when he was with the Pats, Brady seemed to like Moss and Welker better (can't figure out why), and didn't throw to him as much as he was used to.

Fauria - Averaged 16 yards a game with Seattle.  Averaged 12 yards a game with New England.  But had twice as many TDs with the Pats despite playing 3 less years in NE.

And he also got Moss a ridiculous year, and Welker became a star.  My argument isn't that he's elevating players.  He's winning games and putting up, in your words "slightly above average numbers" with a receiving core and running attack that's definitely bottom 10, and probably bottom 5 in the league.
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