All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/7/2013 11:45 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/7/2013 10:13:00 AM (view original):
It's not about running no huddle.

The Pats run a lot of trick plays, including direct snaps to RBs, receiving routes designed to cross up defenders, reverses to everyone from Welker to Hernandez, shovel passes, and others.

You want to act like I'm seeing something that isn't there, but it's you who has the problem with seeing things. If you don't see these plays then you aren't paying attention.

Pats had 1 direct snap to a RB all year.  It so happened to be in a nationally televised game.  

You clearly do not watch Pats game. 
2/7/2013 11:50 AM

“There is no evidence Brady is a great QB. None. 

The only "evidence" is wins (a function of a whole team) and stats inflated by system play and talented team mates.”

A system you can’t differentiate well from most other systems.  We’ve discussed “talented teammates” at length, but this is one of those things you ignore or dismiss when I argue it.  You can go back and look at the arguments I’ve made regarding his offensive line, receivers pre-Welker/Moss, the lack of legit deep threats he’s had, etc.



Sure, BOTH OF US have bias in this situation. You drink the kool-aid, while I hate Brady in part PRECISELY BECAUSE he is over rated by people who drink the kool-aid (and in part because he's an arrogant whoring piece of ****).

I don’t have bias.  I don’t like the Pats; I’d prefer if Brady were overrated.  Remember, I’m a Giants fan.  You have bias because you’re not a fan of his lifestyle and personality, (despite your incredibly limited knowledge in both areas) and believe the Pats cheat and aren’t deserving of the wins they accumulate.  

2/7/2013 11:51 AM
Posted by 05nomar05 on 2/7/2013 11:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bistiza on 2/7/2013 10:13:00 AM (view original):
It's not about running no huddle.

The Pats run a lot of trick plays, including direct snaps to RBs, receiving routes designed to cross up defenders, reverses to everyone from Welker to Hernandez, shovel passes, and others.

You want to act like I'm seeing something that isn't there, but it's you who has the problem with seeing things. If you don't see these plays then you aren't paying attention.

Pats had 1 direct snap to a RB all year.  It so happened to be in a nationally televised game.  

You clearly do not watch Pats game. 
No, that's all he watches, remember?  His favorite team is the team playing the Pats that day.
2/7/2013 11:57 AM
He's a f'ing idiot.

Oh no...i just insulted him.  No, it's facts.  

You HATE the pats and only see what you see because of it.  There is mounds of evidence to disprove what you "see"....yet, you don't see it.  Shocker!  

Go back to wishing people bodily harm.
2/7/2013 11:57 AM
Pats had 1 direct snap to a RB all year.  It so happened to be in a nationally televised game. 

Two points:

First, it's not a trick play if they run it all the time. They're limited by design.

Second, the Pats have used direct snaps to the RB before this season.
A system you can’t differentiate well from most other systems.

I have differentiated it. You say I haven't. We can go round and round all day with your denials, but I'd rather not waste the time.
We’ve discussed “talented teammates” at length, but this is one of those things you ignore or dismiss when I argue it.


You're right, we have been over it at length. I've never ignored it. I gave you many examples of talent on the team.
I don’t have bias.  I don’t like the Pats; I’d prefer if Brady were overrated.


Good news: Brady IS over rated. You can't see it because you buy into the hype that is the very reason he's over rated.
You have bias because you’re not a fan of his lifestyle and personality, (despite your incredibly limited knowledge in both areas) and believe the Pats cheat and aren’t deserving of the wins they accumulate. 


I put those things aside when arguing about Brady's skills. However, as I said, I AM biased against players who are over rated because they are over rated.


2/7/2013 12:19 PM
Re: "the system" - you haven't differentiated it.  You can say all day that you have, but you, in fact, haven't.

Re: Talent - You've given Wes Welker and Randy Moss, and then insisted that you could throw TD passes to Moss, which further invalidates your understanding of football.  If anyone could play well with Moss, then anyone WOULD have played well with Moss.  There are QBs who haven't.  And again, Brady put up record setting numbers when he had Welker and Moss.  When I gave you Branch, you agreed he was well down the list of top WRs, and he was a #1 for Brady for some time.

One of the main points of the my argument is how Brady put up, at worst, pretty good numbers with below-average weapons.  An average QB wouldn't be able to do that.  Stating that his receivers work well within the system that's presented to him does not help your argument, when your argument is "they play conservatively and do screens and short passes and try to confuse the defense."

It's also interesting that this conservative system you described once put up record setting offensive numbers.  Or did the "system" change?
2/7/2013 1:07 PM
I say I have differentiated the system, you say I haven't. Nothing is going to change either side, so there is no point in arguing this one further.
and then insisted that you could throw TD passes to Moss, which further invalidates your understanding of football.

I was using hyperbole to make the point of how talented Moss is (or at least was). Look it up if you don't know what that means, as you clearly don't get the concept.
If anyone could play well with Moss, then anyone WOULD have played well with Moss.  There are QBs who haven't.

Yeah, when Moss wasn't trying. We all know he quit on plays and on teams, and those instances can't really be compared with the times when he actually gave an effort.
It's also interesting that this conservative system you described once put up record setting offensive numbers.  Or did the "system" change?

You're misinterpreting (perhaps intentionally) a number of things and creating a mishmash of misinformation.

First, the system itself isn't necessarily conservative. It is a system designed to downplay Brady's weaknesses so he doesn't lose games for a talented team.

Second, the record setting numbers had precious little to do with Brady and everything to do with a great o-line, Welker, and especially Moss. We've been over that before. Brady threw down the field more with Moss because of Moss' talents, which means they altered the system to capitalize on the fact they had the most talented receiver in football (a smart move).  That doesn't mean the whole system changed. The goal has always been to minimize Brady's weaknesses and take advantage of the players they have - that's why they went out and got Welker and Moss. Welker fit the existing system incredibly well, and Moss is a talent any team should have wanted to get (provided he wanted to play and actually tried).
2/7/2013 1:38 PM
Posted by edsortails on 2/6/2013 2:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by edsortails on 2/6/2013 1:54:00 PM (view original):
honestly, I don't care what your opinion is and I certainly have no desire to try and change that opinion (this has nothing to do with what I am sure you will think is my frustration over not being able to budge your olympic strength will)...its all yours and more power to you for having it





I repost this line from an earlier post so I can question directly, in what way does it appear I am trying to 'bully' you into any way of thinking?

also, it IS an attempt to belittle when you tell people they think the way that they do because they haven't the stength of mind to think for themselves.....calling people sheep is a put down, therefore you lose the deed to the high road.....
...
I am still kind of wondering......
2/7/2013 1:48 PM
Not everyone is trying to bully people, but many are.

Also, just because the truth hurts doesn't mean the person telling that truth is attempting to belittle anyone or put them down, i.e. using the metaphor of a sheep to make a point about someone's behavior doesn't constitute a put down.

2/7/2013 1:55 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/7/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Not everyone is trying to bully people, but many are.

Also, just because the truth hurts doesn't mean the person telling that truth is attempting to belittle anyone or put them down, i.e. using the metaphor of a sheep to make a point about someone's behavior doesn't constitute a put down.

Get over yourself. 
2/7/2013 2:11 PM
You want me to look up the definition of hyperbole? Can I be sure it's the same as your definition?

Can one look at Moss "trying" for Brady as a positive for Brady?  He has a great relationship with the receivers he has, they always seem to be in sync.  

The goal of the system is to minimize Brady's weaknesses and maximize the talent they do have.  Right?  Name a team that doesn't do that.

Could it be that the Pats ran one type of offense when he didn't have great talent, another type of offense when they did?  And another type of offense now that they largely run 2 tight end sets?  Is it possible that the Pats don't run a specific system for Tom Brady, but run an offense meant to get the best possible results based on the talent they have?
2/7/2013 2:14 PM
Also, to state that the Pats' offense in 2007, considered by many as the most productive of all time, had little to do with Tom Brady, is ignorant.  I'm sorry.  It is impossible to put up those numbers with an "average" QB.  It's not like Brady is simply chucking up a hail mary to Moss every time, and Moss comes down with it.
2/7/2013 2:19 PM
Get over myself? This has nothing to do with me, and I'm certainly not touting anything about myself.

Please don't try to insult me just because I dared to tell a difficult truth.

burnsy,

NE is the only team Brady plays for, so that is the only team that runs a system to minimize HIS weaknesses. This is simple logic.

No team with a QB who is as good as people claim Brady is has to run a system like that, because those QBs don't have as many flaws as Brady does. That's the point.
Is it possible that the Pats don't run a specific system for Tom Brady, but run an offense meant to get the best possible results based on the talent they have?
Those two things are one and the same. Minimizing Brady's weaknesses (which as I said are plentiful when compared with any truly great QB) is a large part of how they try to get the best possible results from their players.
2/7/2013 2:35 PM
Continuing to state that Brady has a plentiful amount of weaknesses does not make it true.  Especially when you were given evidence to the contrary.

Putting together a game plan that maximizes your potential and minimizes your weaknesses isn't a "system."  It doesn't make Brady a "system QB."  Because every team does this.  Unless you think every QB is a "system QB."

And again, when the Pats had great receivers, like Moss, they threw the ball down the field more often.  The fact that Brady doesn't attempt to throw 40 yard bombs into coverage to David Patten, when he felt more comfortable attempting a 10 yard pass to Deion Branch, does not make him a worse QB.  If Brady did throw deep bombs to below average receivers, and they were incomplete, or picked off, we'd be ripping Brady for having poor decision-making skills. 

2/7/2013 2:42 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/7/2013 2:19:00 PM (view original):
Get over myself? This has nothing to do with me, and I'm certainly not touting anything about myself.

Please don't try to insult me just because I dared to tell a difficult truth.

burnsy,

NE is the only team Brady plays for, so that is the only team that runs a system to minimize HIS weaknesses. This is simple logic.

No team with a QB who is as good as people claim Brady is has to run a system like that, because those QBs don't have as many flaws as Brady does. That's the point.
Is it possible that the Pats don't run a specific system for Tom Brady, but run an offense meant to get the best possible results based on the talent they have?
Those two things are one and the same. Minimizing Brady's weaknesses (which as I said are plentiful when compared with any truly great QB) is a large part of how they try to get the best possible results from their players.
The only truth you've said is your hatred for the Pats/Brady.  That's all.  NOTHING, and i mean nothing you've said regarding Brady or the Pats is true.  All it is your opinion of them (which is flawed and simpleminded).

Everyone here has shown many many stats that proven you wrong.  
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