All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/21/2013 11:06 AM
And you should take a look at the list of all time games played by QB's before you call Brady a compiler.  Sure, anyone with a longer career is going to be a "compiler", but Brady isn't even in the top 30 qb's in all time's game played.  You are about right about that as when you said he was a terrible cold weather QB and Nomar pointed out he was 15-1 in such situations.
2/21/2013 11:07 AM
How many super bowl titles did Moss lead the Patriots too?
2/21/2013 11:09 AM
Read your first sentence again. Moss was already a phenomenally talented player - he simply had to be given motivation to try, because he's a whiny **** who won't try if he doesn't have the right motivation. Being on a talented team with SB potential is what did that, not Brady.

He was never on the downside of his career (until maybe recently). He just didn't try because that's how he is, as I just explained. His "giant rebound" had to do with trying because he was on a team he wanted to play for, not Brady.

This type of thing is exactly why Brady is over rated. You people want to give him credit for everything other people do. Moss CARRIES Brady to an undefeated season, passing records, an MVP Moss should have gotten and an undefeated season - then everyone talks about how great Brady is. Now you want to give Brady credit for making Moss when the EXACT OPPOSITE is what really happened.

THAT RIGHT THERE is a big reason why Brady is over rated - he gets the credit for others carrying him to success.
2/21/2013 11:09 AM
Not included in that list of top 10's he has in stat categories is winning percentage as a QB either...guess where he is on that one.
2/21/2013 11:10 AM
The amount of wins a team has generally gives you an idea on the quality of the quarterback.  Year-to-year, it's often difficult, but over a long period of time, it gives a good indicator.  You mentioned that Brady was carried to the insane amount of wins he had.  We discussed this back and forth, I argued that the weapons he had were often below-average, and argued that there isn't actually a "system" in place that's much different than any of team runs.  We went in circles about this for a while.  It's hard to win the amount of games Brady won, and reach the amount of Super Bowls that Brady reached, without being an excellent quarterback.  You haven't sold me on the idea that he was carried by his team.

Yes, when you add Moss to a team, the QB plays better.  OK.

How about we do this, so this can end.  Give your closing statement.  It can be as long as you want it to be.  Give every point you want to, give all the evidence you have to back up your argument about how people overrate Brady.  When you're done, I'll give a final response to your statement, and then you can respond to mine, having the last word.  Then we can move on.
2/21/2013 11:11 AM
You are about right about that as when you said he was a terrible cold weather QB and Nomar pointed out he was 15-1 in such situations.

Then I pointed out the tuck rule fumble that wasn't and suggested there are probably other mistakes Brady made in cold weather which didn't result in losses for similar reasons, and as usual, you all ignored that because you OUTRIGHT REFUSE to address Brady's failures.

In that case, I can make any QB seem great. Trent Dilfer won an SB with the Ravens, and you can't say he isn't HOF material since you're not allowed to discuss any of his failings and can only talk about things he did that were great. See how that works? THAT is what you people do with Brady.
2/21/2013 11:11 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/21/2013 11:09:00 AM (view original):
Read your first sentence again. Moss was already a phenomenally talented player - he simply had to be given motivation to try, because he's a whiny **** who won't try if he doesn't have the right motivation. Being on a talented team with SB potential is what did that, not Brady.

He was never on the downside of his career (until maybe recently). He just didn't try because that's how he is, as I just explained. His "giant rebound" had to do with trying because he was on a team he wanted to play for, not Brady.

This type of thing is exactly why Brady is over rated. You people want to give him credit for everything other people do. Moss CARRIES Brady to an undefeated season, passing records, an MVP Moss should have gotten and an undefeated season - then everyone talks about how great Brady is. Now you want to give Brady credit for making Moss when the EXACT OPPOSITE is what really happened.

THAT RIGHT THERE is a big reason why Brady is over rated - he gets the credit for others carrying him to success.
Moss is one of the all time greatest for sure, but you not wanting to give any credit to Brady for turning his career back around is ludicrous and an example of the extreme bias you have towards Brady.  With that kind of bias, there's no way you are looking at things objectively.
2/21/2013 11:12 AM
Also, Moss is the only legit deep threat Brady has ever had.  He had one once, and he put up insane numbers.
2/21/2013 11:13 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/21/2013 11:11:00 AM (view original):
You are about right about that as when you said he was a terrible cold weather QB and Nomar pointed out he was 15-1 in such situations.

Then I pointed out the tuck rule fumble that wasn't and suggested there are probably other mistakes Brady made in cold weather which didn't result in losses for similar reasons, and as usual, you all ignored that because you OUTRIGHT REFUSE to address Brady's failures.

In that case, I can make any QB seem great. Trent Dilfer won an SB with the Ravens, and you can't say he isn't HOF material since you're not allowed to discuss any of his failings and can only talk about things he did that were great. See how that works? THAT is what you people do with Brady.
You mean he got hit from the blindside on a CB blitz and fumbled?  Oh my god, that never happens!  Where was his vaunted offensive line to pick that blitz up? 


Stack up Dilfer's stats against Brady's.  Get back to me with what you come up with.
2/21/2013 11:17 AM
The amount of wins a team has generally gives you an idea on the quality of the quarterback. 

No. This is the fallacy which leads people to over rate QBs based on wins, particularly in the post season and Super Bowl.

In reality, this only gives you a possible idea of the quality of the TEAM as a whole, and the QB is a part of that.
It's hard to win the amount of games Brady won, and reach the amount of Super Bowls that Brady reached, without being an excellent quarterback.

No, it isn't, not when you have the talent that team has had.

If Brady is even half of what you people say he is, they should have won the two against the Giants, made several others and won some of those too. Brady should be something like 7-1 in the Super Bowl instead of 3-2 considering the talent around him.

Oh, that's right, he's CHOKED away at least one Super Bowl win (the last one against the Giants with the messed up throw to Welker) and at least one appearance (2006, with the throw right to Marlin Jackson of the Colts) and I'm sure he's made more mistakes too. Funny, no one but me discusses those things. It's easy to see how great Brady is when you ignore all his failures.

I'm not doing closing statements unless you want yours to be an admission that most people over rate Brady.
2/21/2013 11:18 AM
Stack up Dilfer's stats against Brady's.  Get back to me with what you come up with.

We're not allowed to compare stats because that might highlight Dilfer's failings, and that's not allowed. We can't discuss any of his failings in any way. We'll call it 'the Brady rule' of discussing NFL QBs.
2/21/2013 11:19 AM

Would you like me to list the bad plays Peyton Manning has made to cost his teams games?  It's a long list.

2/21/2013 11:19 AM
You aren't doing closing arguments unless my argument supports yours.  OK.

This is my point - I've addressed several issues you bring forth above.  It's why I don't feel like arguing against you anymore.  You don't listen.

Present a final argument as I addressed, or I'm done.  Again, you get the last word.
2/21/2013 11:20 AM
you not wanting to give any credit to Brady for turning his career back around is ludicrous and an example of the extreme bias you have towards Brady.  With that kind of bias, there's no way you are looking at things objectively.

I say just the opposite: You wanting to give Brady credit for what Moss did is ludicrous and an example of your extreme bias in favor of Brady. With that kind of bias, there's no way you are looking at things objectively.

Looks like we've said the same things about each other and it's a wash. I hope you feel good about getting nowhere.
2/21/2013 11:22 AM
Would you like me to list the bad plays Peyton Manning has made to cost his teams games?  It's a long list.

NO. I already said people are completely willing to discuss other QBs failings, including especially Manning.

What I want you to do is admit to Brady's failings and discuss those objectively. You won't do it, because when you do, it will show you Brady isn't so great and you're over rating him (unless you want to keep up your denial even in the face of the failings, and that just shows you've got issues beyond this here).
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