All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/22/2013 1:17 PM
"I will continue to say you are over rating Brady if you dare to say how great he is without mentioning that he has also failed, and that goes for all of you."

Brady has failed.

Brady is one of the best QBs of all-time.

Better?
2/22/2013 1:17 PM
???

If I ask you if Peyton Manning is a great QB, what do you say?

Do you say: 

Yes, he is. Look at all he's done example, example, example.
Or
Yes, he is. Look at all his failings, example, example, example.

You're being a little ridiculous expecting someone advocating for Brady's greatness to lead with his failings.
2/22/2013 1:22 PM
Brady has failed. Brady is one of the best QBs of all-time. Better?

No, because you are intentionally limiting the first statement's scope in order to make the second statement mesh with it. Here's a clue: The two statements you made do NOT mesh.

The ACCURATE statement is this: When you consider Brady's failures as well as his successes, he CANNOT be considered one of the best QBs of all time.

The ONLY way anyone ever makes that kind of statement is if they over rate Brady by ignoring his mistakes and/or giving far too much weight to team success.
2/22/2013 1:24 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/22/2013 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Brady has failed. Brady is one of the best QBs of all-time. Better?

No, because you are intentionally limiting the first statement's scope in order to make the second statement mesh with it. Here's a clue: The two statements you made do NOT mesh.

The ACCURATE statement is this: When you consider Brady's failures as well as his successes, he CANNOT be considered one of the best QBs of all time.

The ONLY way anyone ever makes that kind of statement is if they over rate Brady by ignoring his mistakes and/or giving far too much weight to team success.
That is only accurate to someone that HATES Brady.  Not someone that can look at this argument objectively.  
2/22/2013 1:29 PM
If I argue Peyton is great, I list the things that make him great and acknowledge some of the things he hasn't done well at the same time. It's a natural thing when arguing something to address opposing points you almost KNOW will be brought up.

It's the same as if you argue Barry Bonds was a great home run hitter. You almost KNOW you need to address the PEDs or someone will bring it up and you'll have to deal with it anyway.

The problem with Brady is (other than me) no one ever brings it up when his failures aren't addressed as part of the discussion surrounding him. They just go on touting him as great with no mention of anything else.

Seriously, think about it. How many people argue "Brady is great because he's won 3 SBs" with ZERO mention of the fact he has lost two of them more recently? How many people cite his record-setting year in 2007 WITHOUT  a single reference to Moss arriving that year and being the biggest reason for it?

Again, seriously, think about  it.
2/22/2013 1:30 PM
That is only accurate to someone that HATES Brady.  Not someone that can look at this argument objectively. 

I say the opposite: It's an accurate statement unless someone drinks the Brady kool-aid.
2/22/2013 1:31 PM
It's so retarded. Every great QB has failed numerous times. Every one. To ignore accomplishment is counter productive to an argument about best ever. Manning failed four times in ANOTHER first round playoff exit(top seeded exit), but that counts for nothing. We can only talk about Brady's failings. Shouldn't all of the great's failings be lined up alongside their accomplishments?

I see Biz ignored my bet offer. Good call.
2/22/2013 1:31 PM
"The ACCURATE statement is this: When you consider Brady's failures as well as his successes, he CANNOT be considered one of the best QBs of all time."

Why? Conventional wisdom says it's wrong.  He leads the league in passing statistics fairly often, has been on teams that have won Super Bowls, and advanced statistics love him.  

Show your work.  Running around in circles screaming "I'm arguing effectively" doesn't help you.  Give it one last shot, and I'll let this go if you come up with a good argument.

2/22/2013 1:35 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/22/2013 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Brady has failed. Brady is one of the best QBs of all-time. Better?

No, because you are intentionally limiting the first statement's scope in order to make the second statement mesh with it. Here's a clue: The two statements you made do NOT mesh.

The ACCURATE statement is this: When you consider Brady's failures as well as his successes, he CANNOT be considered one of the best QBs of all time.

The ONLY way anyone ever makes that kind of statement is if they over rate Brady by ignoring his mistakes and/or giving far too much weight to team success.
He has 3 super bowl rings.

He has the all time record for TD passes in a season.

He has the all time record for most post season wins for a QB.

Football outsiders ranks him as the best QB in the league 4 out of the last 6 years (3rd in 2011, injured in 2008)

In his career he's thrown for 334 TDs and almost 45,000 yards with a 63.7 completion percentage.

What failings could he possibly have that completely offset all of that? 
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2/22/2013 1:35 PM
Number one win percentage in the history of the game. Lets ignore that and focus on a (non) fumble in the snow. So dumb.
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2/22/2013 1:37 PM
Haha. That was 7-2 easily.
2/22/2013 1:39 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2013 1:35:00 PM (view original):
Guess who gets post 1000 in this abomination?
I think that Ravens-Pats point spread was too high.
2/22/2013 1:42 PM
Manning failed four times in ANOTHER first round playoff exit(top seeded exit), but that counts for nothing.

Sure it counts, but you might consider Manning put his team in position to win the game unless there was a miracle play by Baltimore, so when one actually did happen (through NO fault of Manning's) that doesn't mean his legacy is forever tarnished because they lost the game.

That's the kind of screwed up reasoning that causes people to over rate QBs based on wins. Broncos lose, you think less of Manning.

But if Rahim Moore doesn't act like he's a high school DB with no clue and either knocks down or perhaps intercepts that Flacco bomb that shouldn't have stood a chance, maybe Manning gets another ring, and then you think he's better than you did before.

I look at a QBs skills and what value they add to a team as being much greater than the random chance of whether or not the team wins the SB. Sure, wins have value, but you act like that's the only way any QB should ever be evaluated.
I see Biz ignored my bet offer. Good call.

It was pointless to the argument being made. Also, I'm not wasting my time with that.

burnsy,

Virtually all NFL QBs are over rated based on wins, especially in the playoffs and Super Bowl. This is certainly true of Brady.

Also, people tend to forget Brady's mistakes and focus on his successes. He's won 3 SBs a decade ago, and that somehow trumps two losses since.

Think of it this way: If Brady had never been to a single Super Bowl and certainly didn't win any of them, how great would you think he is?
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