All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/22/2013 1:44 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/22/2013 1:42:00 PM (view original):
Manning failed four times in ANOTHER first round playoff exit(top seeded exit), but that counts for nothing.

Sure it counts, but you might consider Manning put his team in position to win the game unless there was a miracle play by Baltimore, so when one actually did happen (through NO fault of Manning's) that doesn't mean his legacy is forever tarnished because they lost the game.

That's the kind of screwed up reasoning that causes people to over rate QBs based on wins. Broncos lose, you think less of Manning.

But if Rahim Moore doesn't act like he's a high school DB with no clue and either knocks down or perhaps intercepts that Flacco bomb that shouldn't have stood a chance, maybe Manning gets another ring, and then you think he's better than you did before.

I look at a QBs skills and what value they add to a team as being much greater than the random chance of whether or not the team wins the SB. Sure, wins have value, but you act like that's the only way any QB should ever be evaluated.
I see Biz ignored my bet offer. Good call.

It was pointless to the argument being made. Also, I'm not wasting my time with that.

burnsy,

Virtually all NFL QBs are over rated based on wins, especially in the playoffs and Super Bowl. This is certainly true of Brady.

Also, people tend to forget Brady's mistakes and focus on his successes. He's won 3 SBs a decade ago, and that somehow trumps two losses since.

Think of it this way: If Brady had never been to a single Super Bowl and certainly didn't win any of them, how great would you think he is?
Yeah the pick six, fumble, OT interception, and audible into a run on third and long had nothing to do with the loss. Only reason they were in the game was special teams play.
2/22/2013 1:45 PM
And about as great as Marino.
2/22/2013 1:46 PM
And way to puss out. If you believe what you say, put your money where your mouth is. Fact is, you know it's a losing proposition.
2/22/2013 1:49 PM
He has 3 super bowl rings.
He also lost in two of them and failed to make any more despite having arguably the most talented team in the league around him.

He has the all time record for TD passes in a season.
He barely got that record over a guy named Manning so many of you are ready to bash. Nearly half of those TD tosses came to one player, too, but let's not give him any credit.

He has the all time record for most post season wins for a QB.
If this was all I knew about him, it would tell me a couple of things:

First, he didn't play for the Cleveland Browns over the last decade or so.

Second, he was blessed to play for a team that had talent to work with him (i.e. again, not the Browns).

Third, he didn't cost his team any games.

Other than that, there would be no way to know how much of the TEAM'S success he is actually responsible for. But we'll take your tactic and assume he won all the games by himself.

Football outsiders ranks him as the best QB in the league 4 out of the last 6 years (3rd in 2011, injured in 2008)
They also say he's comparable to Trent Green, and not a single person here has even made one mention of Green as being great.

In his career he's thrown for 334 TDs and almost 45,000 yards with a 63.7 completion percentage.
So he's had a long career as a starter.

What failings could he possibly have that completely offset all of that?

Considering most of what you just said is relatively meaningless in terms of establishing his greatness, any mention of his failings at all more than offsets it.
2/22/2013 1:51 PM
lets try this:

Heres your's Biz, re this years playoff game:
Sure it counts, but you might consider Manning put his team in position to win the game unless there was a miracle play by Baltimore, so when one actually did happen (through NO fault of Manning's) that doesn't mean his legacy is forever tarnished because they lost the game.

That's the kind of screwed up reasoning that causes people to over rate QBs based on wins. Broncos lose, you think less of Manning.

But if Rahim Moore doesn't act like he's a high school DB with no clue and either knocks down or perhaps intercepts that Flacco bomb that shouldn't have stood a chance, maybe Manning gets another ring, and then you think he's better than you did before

Here is mine, re either Super Bowl vs NYG:

Sure it counts, but you might consider Brady put his team in position to win the game unless there was a miracle play by New York, so when one actually did happen (through NO fault of Brady's) that doesn't mean his legacy is forever tarnished because they lost the game.

That's the kind of screwed up reasoning that causes people to over rate QBs based on wins. Patriots lose, you think less of Brady.

But if the DB doesn't act like he's a high school DB with no clue and either knocks down or perhaps intercepts that Eli Manning pass that shouldn't have stood a chance (or the DL gets to Manning in the 5 minutes he sat in the pocket),  Brady gets another ring, and then you arent talking about the 2 Super Bowls he lost.
2/22/2013 1:57 PM
And way to puss out. If you believe what you say, put your money where your mouth is. Fact is, you know it's a losing proposition.

Manning has thrown more INTs than Brady, though not by as much as you might imagine. (Brady career INT percentage is 2.1, Manning 2.7)

So what? You want to argue over every one of them? I don't have time for that.




2/22/2013 1:57 PM
He also lost in two of them and failed to make any more despite having arguably the most talented team in the league around him.

Yeah, but is it Brady's fault they lost? Brady certainly wasn't playing defense when the Giants marched down the field for the game winning drive.

He barely got that record over a guy named Manning so many of you are ready to bash. Nearly half of those TD tosses came to one player, too, but let's not give him any credit.

Manning is a great QB. I consider him in the same tier as Brady. Should we diminish Manning's accomplishments because he had Harrison?

I think you are completely insane.

2/22/2013 2:01 PM
loudawg,

Fair enough, but I'm not the one arguing someone is great or not based on whether they won or lost the Super Bowl (or any game for that matter).

My point is when you use TEAM success as a measure of greatness for one player, you are going to over or under rate that player based on the FACT that other people contribute to the team's success (or lack thereof).

Again, if Brady had played for the Cleveland Browns and never went to a Super Bowl but somehow produced the exact same stats otherwise, how much would your opinion of him be different?
2/22/2013 2:02 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/22/2013 1:57:00 PM (view original):
And way to puss out. If you believe what you say, put your money where your mouth is. Fact is, you know it's a losing proposition.

Manning has thrown more INTs than Brady, though not by as much as you might imagine. (Brady career INT percentage is 2.1, Manning 2.7)

So what? You want to argue over every one of them? I don't have time for that.




You want to count non fumbles against Brady but not pics against Manning. Not biased at all.
2/22/2013 2:03 PM
Posted by bistiza on 2/22/2013 2:01:00 PM (view original):
loudawg,

Fair enough, but I'm not the one arguing someone is great or not based on whether they won or lost the Super Bowl (or any game for that matter).

My point is when you use TEAM success as a measure of greatness for one player, you are going to over or under rate that player based on the FACT that other people contribute to the team's success (or lack thereof).

Again, if Brady had played for the Cleveland Browns and never went to a Super Bowl but somehow produced the exact same stats otherwise, how much would your opinion of him be different?
He'd be Dan Marino. Who doesn't think Marino is great?
2/22/2013 2:04 PM
Yeah, but is it Brady's fault they lost? Brady certainly wasn't playing defense when the Giants marched down the field for the game winning drive.

Right, I remember. It's all Brady when they win, and all someone else when they lose. Got it.
Manning is a great QB. I consider him in the same tier as Brady. Should we diminish Manning's accomplishments because he had Harrison?

Seriously, Harrison is a great WR no doubt, but Moss in his prime when he actually tried had no peer.

I would honestly contend if Manning had thrown to Moss, he might have hit 60 TDs in a season, with Moss getting maybe 30 of them.
2/22/2013 2:05 PM
You want to count non fumbles against Brady but not pics against Manning. Not biased at all.

No I admit his picks exist. I'm just not going to waste time looking back at every single one over his career and arguing about it.
2/22/2013 2:06 PM
"burnsy,

Virtually all NFL QBs are over rated based on wins, especially in the playoffs and Super Bowl. This is certainly true of Brady. 

Also, people tend to forget Brady's mistakes and focus on his successes. He's won 3 SBs a decade ago, and that somehow trumps two losses since.

Think of it this way: If Brady had never been to a single Super Bowl and certainly didn't win any of them, how great would you think he is?"



If a 8 time pro bowler, 2 time MVP, and someone who is 3rd place in QB rating for their career never been to a Super Bowl? He'd probably still be top 10 for me.  Top 12 at worst.  I think I ranked Marino at 7.
2/22/2013 2:11 PM
The QB rating argument is the only thing you mention which is actually valid. I'll grant you that one. The rest of it is meaningless as the awards are given by the same people who buy into Brady's hype.

2/22/2013 2:13 PM
or buy into the stats he puts up.
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