All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
2/28/2013 11:14 AM
Taint,

The reasons Brady is over rated all have to do with reality and facts.

Considering the site we're on here, dealing with sports questions in the hypothetical should not surprise you.

burnsy,

YOU SAY leading in a stat category is evidence of being a great quarterback.

I like to look deeper, beyond just the stat, to find what it really means - and in Brady's case, it means he played in a system that certainly aided in those stats. It also helped a great deal when the Patriots went out and found players who fit well within that system and have a lot of talent on top of it (hence why the talent on the team increased over time).

Look at the evidence: Brady produced good stats within the system. When the team got players who fit the system better, everyone improved stat-wise. When incredibly talented players like Moss were introduced, suddenly the team was phenomenal. It was the changes to the system and to OTHER PLAYERS in that system which generated better stats, NOT Brady.

Cassel's year with the Patriots should kill all doubts the system had nothing to do with it and that it's all Brady. Unlike Brady, who has always been with the Pats and the system, we can compare Cassel in the system with Cassel outside the system (and the team).

Funny, Cassel with the system and the team is much better than Cassel without those things. It's not a huge leap to extrapolate that same phenomenon to Brady and say he would not be nearly as good without the system and the team as well.
2/28/2013 11:15 AM
MY evidence against the idea of Brady being successful because he is a "system" QB:

Multiple offensive coordinators during his career there
Belichick's history of being a defensive coach, with no experience prior to NE of handling an offense
Drew Bledsoe's statistics the 2 years prior to Brady taking over the position
Matt Cassel's significantly worse statistics compared to Brady's prior season, and season following

Now present your evidence for why he's a "system QB"

2/28/2013 11:19 AM
Yes, Cassel with Randy Moss and Wes Welker is better than Cassel with Dwayne Bowe and Jonathan Baldwin.  Cassel was significantly worse than Brady was with the same weapons Brady had.

Yes, when the Pats got better weapons, Brady's stats improved.  That's generally what happens when you give any QB better weapons to throw the ball to.  It isn't evidence of the QB being successful purely because of the offensive system.

Also, see Cassel's stats this year:
www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kan/2010.htm

They are better than they were with the Pats, with worse weapons.

2/28/2013 11:19 AM
You don't need to keep the same offensive coordinator to use the same offensive system, scheme, or playcalling.

Belichick doesn't have to be an offensive genius in order to establish a system or allow others to do so and then keep it once he discovers it works.

Bledsoe didn't use the system. It was implemented with Brady because of concerns Brady didn't have the skills to get the job done.

Let's compare stats that are as close as we can get to accurate comparisons, as I did - let's compare Cassel to Cassel. With the Pats and the system, he was much better.

Looks like all of your evidence has just been debunked, with the last one actually serving as evidence for me.
2/28/2013 11:21 AM
Sorry, you responded and probably didn't see this edit I made:

Also, see Cassel's stats this year:
www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/kan/2010.htm
2/28/2013 11:22 AM
You know, I'm half tempted to create an NFL "dream team" on this site with Brady from 2007 as QB, but a crappy O-line and receivers and defense, and see how many wins he gets them.

It should be 10-12 if he's not over rated at all, and the other players and the system don't matter.
2/28/2013 11:22 AM
He's definitely a system QB, they've been running the same system with differenet OC's all through BB tenure there.  Manning was a system QB at Indy.  Montana was a system QB at SF, they are all system QB's.  Jim Kelly was a system QB in Buffalo(with a **** ton of offensive weapons around him at all times).  System QB is the most overrated term in the history of sports and one Biz is relying on to make unfounded claims on Brady's skills. 

If he wasn't good, there would be a different QB playing.  If he wasn't great, his name wouldn't be on top ten lists in almost every statistical category...except interceptions and games played.

Cassel had a higher QB rating his second year in KC, including half the number of INT's.  He obviously had some skill.

2/28/2013 11:29 AM (edited)

You don't need to keep the same offensive coordinator to use the same offensive system, scheme, or playcalling.

  • That’s fine, you don’t.  But the Pats would be the only team in football to use the same specific offensive system over the course of the last 12 years.

Belichick doesn't have to be an offensive genius in order to establish a system or allow others to do so and then keep it once he discovers it works.

  • He would have to be an offensive genius to make an average QB appear elite to so many people.  He has no history of working with an offense effectively prior to his head coaching career.

Bledsoe didn't use the system. It was implemented with Brady because of concerns Brady didn't have the skills to get the job done.

  • Evidence please? Show your work.

Let's compare stats that are as close as we can get to accurate comparisons, as I did - let's compare Cassel to Cassel. With the Pats and the system, he was much better. 

  • He had a season in KC that I’d argue was better than the season with New England.  Worse weapons in KC, and was very efficient.  But it’s best to compare Cassel to Brady, and when you do that, Brady looks elite, and Cassel looks above-average at best.
2/28/2013 11:25 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/28/2013 11:22:00 AM (view original):
You know, I'm half tempted to create an NFL "dream team" on this site with Brady from 2007 as QB, but a crappy O-line and receivers and defense, and see how many wins he gets them.

It should be 10-12 if he's not over rated at all, and the other players and the system don't matter.
He'd probably put up similar numbers to what he did pre-Welker.
2/28/2013 11:26 AM
Bledsoe definitely used the same system as Brady is using now.
2/28/2013 11:27 AM
It's called the Erhart/Perkins system and has been in place since day one of BB's tenure.
2/28/2013 11:37 AM
Yes, that's what it's called, and the Pats play-calling is modified from that significantly.  Many teams use the same concepts as this system. It was originally designed as run-heavy, powerhouse football with lots of play-action.  Obviously the Pats run a much different offense now, but with similar concepts.

The Pats offense NOW is also much different than it was with Moss and Welker.  And much different than it was with Brown and Branch.  To say the system is specific and Brady is successful only because of it is ridiculous.
2/28/2013 11:43 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/28/2013 11:22:00 AM (view original):
You know, I'm half tempted to create an NFL "dream team" on this site with Brady from 2007 as QB, but a crappy O-line and receivers and defense, and see how many wins he gets them.

It should be 10-12 if he's not over rated at all, and the other players and the system don't matter.
what would this prove?  are there any QBs in history that have been successful with a crappy offensive line, crappy WRs and a bad defense?  i would highly doubt it.
2/28/2013 1:01 PM
Haha!  This is great.
2/28/2013 1:05 PM
It proves Brady isn't a football god (see the other thread for more details).

And if Brady isn't the equivalent of a football god who can will ANY team - even a horrible one - to victory, then he's not as great as many of you say.

If he's not as great as many of you say, then you are over rating Brady.

Brady is over rated.

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