All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Makes me sick...
2/8/2013 11:25 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 10:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Would you say knowingly giving humans free will is an ideal situation?    You'd think a higher power would know that's tossing a monkey wrench into everything.
That's who God is. What value do love and respect have if you have to force someone to give them to you? God wants to be chosen, thus he gives us free will. Unfortunately, that also means we have the freedom to choose evil. This is a fallen world, but that doesn't mean God isn't still in control.
Ahh, so God is now the ultimate scapegoat.

JTP likes the idea of God because then he can be a raging brain-dead ******, and claim "God wants me to be this way!"
2/8/2013 11:29 AM
then why does he allow innocent children to suffer and die?  It seems an all-powerful God would do THAT differently.  And if that's accepted as just "part of His plan," then why couldn't populating the earth with single-celled organisms and watching them grow and evolve have been "part of his plan" too?

The answer to why an all-powerful God allows negative things to occur requires a much longer (and better) answer than I can give you here, but the crux of it is this: People have free will. Without it we would be robots, and then it would be a perfect world full of robots. Instead, we can make choices, but when we (or others) make the wrong choices, that invites the possibility of negative things happening (and they do happen, obviously). You can't have a perfect world and have free will.

Sure, God could have populated the earth with single-celled organisms and "watch them grow", as you suggest. We don't know that this did not occur. It's also possible God could have created a finished product, and if you're talking about the way the traditional Judeo-Christian God is most often portrayed - both in the Bible and in its common interpretations - this seems more likely.
2/8/2013 11:38 AM
Posted by toddcommish on 2/8/2013 11:25:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 10:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Would you say knowingly giving humans free will is an ideal situation?    You'd think a higher power would know that's tossing a monkey wrench into everything.
That's who God is. What value do love and respect have if you have to force someone to give them to you? God wants to be chosen, thus he gives us free will. Unfortunately, that also means we have the freedom to choose evil. This is a fallen world, but that doesn't mean God isn't still in control.
Ahh, so God is now the ultimate scapegoat.

JTP likes the idea of God because then he can be a raging brain-dead ******, and claim "God wants me to be this way!"
What the hell are you talking about? "Humans have the freedom to choose". Where does that statement even begin to imply God as a scapegoat?

God created man with free will - if man turns to evil, it's because he chooses it. God is not at fault for man's choices.
2/8/2013 11:42 AM
Posted by bistiza on 2/8/2013 11:29:00 AM (view original):
then why does he allow innocent children to suffer and die?  It seems an all-powerful God would do THAT differently.  And if that's accepted as just "part of His plan," then why couldn't populating the earth with single-celled organisms and watching them grow and evolve have been "part of his plan" too?

The answer to why an all-powerful God allows negative things to occur requires a much longer (and better) answer than I can give you here, but the crux of it is this: People have free will. Without it we would be robots, and then it would be a perfect world full of robots. Instead, we can make choices, but when we (or others) make the wrong choices, that invites the possibility of negative things happening (and they do happen, obviously). You can't have a perfect world and have free will.

Sure, God could have populated the earth with single-celled organisms and "watch them grow", as you suggest. We don't know that this did not occur. It's also possible God could have created a finished product, and if you're talking about the way the traditional Judeo-Christian God is most often portrayed - both in the Bible and in its common interpretations - this seems more likely.
Free will has absolutely nothing to do with children suffering and dying.  If I were to suffer and die you could argue it was a result (karmic or otherwise) of choices I had made in my life, and free will could apply.  In the case of a 6 month old baby, not so much.
2/8/2013 11:49 AM
It's the world we live in. death is a part of it. nowhere does it say "every person shall remain safe and healthy until they hit 80 years of age", etc. God is far more concerned with our spirits than our physical bodies. Life doesn't end when our physical body dies, and he knows that - he sees a bigger picture. If there is a God, I can guarantee he sees and understands far more about how all things work together than you or I ever will. It's like when you discipline a child or deny them something and they throw a tantrum like you're the most horrible and sadistic parent that ever lived. You know better - your understanding is greater and you see a bigger picture that your child isn't ready to grasp.

Anyway, I'm not here to convert people. I'm just not going to be talked down to by evolutionists who believe their "science" is infallible and automatically trumps my faith.
2/8/2013 11:49 AM
But why would G-d create a flawed species i.e. one that has the ability to do evil.  It doesn't make any sense.  If you were creating something, wouldn't you create it to be perfect, why create it to be flawed especially if it is supposed to be in your own image. 
2/8/2013 11:52 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 2/8/2013 11:25:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 10:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Would you say knowingly giving humans free will is an ideal situation?    You'd think a higher power would know that's tossing a monkey wrench into everything.
That's who God is. What value do love and respect have if you have to force someone to give them to you? God wants to be chosen, thus he gives us free will. Unfortunately, that also means we have the freedom to choose evil. This is a fallen world, but that doesn't mean God isn't still in control.
Ahh, so God is now the ultimate scapegoat.

JTP likes the idea of God because then he can be a raging brain-dead ******, and claim "God wants me to be this way!"
What the hell are you talking about? "Humans have the freedom to choose". Where does that statement even begin to imply God as a scapegoat?

God created man with free will - if man turns to evil, it's because he chooses it. God is not at fault for man's choices.
Your own quote "This is a fallen world, but that doesn't mean God isn't still in CONTROL" [my emphasis]

Sure sounds like your ceding your free will to someone else's control. 

Either you're in control (free will) or God is.
2/8/2013 11:53 AM
He didn't create it to be flawed. Man chose sin, man is still suffering the consequences of that choice. In the eyes of God, no man is "innocent" now. That's why the ultimate sacrifice was required. Everyone of us was guilty. We like to create our human measuring sticks of morality - but the fact is, in the eyes of God, you and me are the same as Hitler and Charles Manson. We're sinners and all sin is an abomination to God.

If you're asking how evil came to be present in the world in the first place - I don't know the answer. I'm sure you'll give us all your wonderful theories, but the fact is, you don't have the answer either.
2/8/2013 11:53 AM
Posted by toddcommish on 2/8/2013 11:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 2/8/2013 11:25:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 10:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2013 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Would you say knowingly giving humans free will is an ideal situation?    You'd think a higher power would know that's tossing a monkey wrench into everything.
That's who God is. What value do love and respect have if you have to force someone to give them to you? God wants to be chosen, thus he gives us free will. Unfortunately, that also means we have the freedom to choose evil. This is a fallen world, but that doesn't mean God isn't still in control.
Ahh, so God is now the ultimate scapegoat.

JTP likes the idea of God because then he can be a raging brain-dead ******, and claim "God wants me to be this way!"
What the hell are you talking about? "Humans have the freedom to choose". Where does that statement even begin to imply God as a scapegoat?

God created man with free will - if man turns to evil, it's because he chooses it. God is not at fault for man's choices.
Your own quote "This is a fallen world, but that doesn't mean God isn't still in CONTROL" [my emphasis]

Sure sounds like your ceding your free will to someone else's control. 

Either you're in control (free will) or God is.
So if your child throws a tantrum (controlling HIS behaviour), does that mean as a parent, you are no longer in control of your child's life?
2/8/2013 12:12 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 11:49:00 AM (view original):
It's the world we live in. death is a part of it. nowhere does it say "every person shall remain safe and healthy until they hit 80 years of age", etc. God is far more concerned with our spirits than our physical bodies. Life doesn't end when our physical body dies, and he knows that - he sees a bigger picture. If there is a God, I can guarantee he sees and understands far more about how all things work together than you or I ever will. It's like when you discipline a child or deny them something and they throw a tantrum like you're the most horrible and sadistic parent that ever lived. You know better - your understanding is greater and you see a bigger picture that your child isn't ready to grasp.

Anyway, I'm not here to convert people. I'm just not going to be talked down to by evolutionists who believe their "science" is infallible and automatically trumps my faith.

If you can "guarantee he sees and understands far more about how all things work together than you or I ever will," then how can you presume that he wouldn't have created man in a lesser form than we know today and allowed him to evolve to this point, knowing that was the best way?  Your argument spins you back around in a circle, unless you're willing to say "because the Bible tells me so" and leave it at that.

2/8/2013 12:15 PM
Except I already acknowledged that - several times, actually. It's very possible he created the world in a very basic stage, in order to grow and evolve over time. Unlike others, I've claimed no certainty on the matter.

Personally, it's my BELIEF that he created the world at an advanced stage.
2/8/2013 12:16 PM
Fair enough.
2/8/2013 12:21 PM
I'm just trying to make the point that those on the other side of the argument are exercising their beliefs as well. They may feel they have evidence, but it's still just their intepretation and what they choose to believe. There is no fact in this matter.
2/8/2013 12:41 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/8/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
I'm just trying to make the point that those on the other side of the argument are exercising their beliefs as well. They may feel they have evidence, but it's still just their intepretation and what they choose to believe. There is no fact in this matter.

There are plenty of FACTS for those capable of critical thought.  Based on the physics of this universe, we know the decay rate of certain isotopes and can use those FACTS to determine their age and thus, the age of the planet.  If you wanna say, as some have, that "God" created the universe millions of years ago, and let it develop and the Bible simply fudged the dates because they didn't have a word for "millions of years"... OK, that combines the FACTS with their faith.

But to claim "there is no fact in this matter" is simply closing your eyes, covering your ears, and singing "Lalalalala..."

2/8/2013 1:32 PM
Free will has absolutely nothing to do with children suffering and dying.  If I were to suffer and die you could argue it was a result (karmic or otherwise) of choices I had made in my life, and free will could apply.  In the case of a 6 month old baby, not so much.
No one exists in a bubble. It's not just your own choices that can impact what happens to you. The impacts of your choices and those of others are farther reaching that is even possible to quantify.

My point is that somewhere, a series of choices by flawed creatures has resulted in what occurs in the world, whether it is seen as good, bad, or in between. The fact that we are flawed creatures means bad things will happen. Sometimes those things happen to people we do not think "deserve" to have them happen, but that misses the point, as it's not up to us to determine who "deserves" what.
But why would G-d create a flawed species i.e. one that has the ability to do evil.  It doesn't make any sense.  If you were creating something, wouldn't you create it to be perfect, why create it to be flawed especially if it is supposed to be in your own image. 

First, I can only assume you are deliberately misspelling the word "God". If that is the case, what agenda are you attempting to forward by doing so?

Second, the only perfect world would be one without free will, as then no one could choose to do evil. That also means no one could choose to love. No one could choose to obey because the act of obeying would be mandatory. No one could have any true devotion as a result.

So, assuming you had the power and ability, your choice is to create an army of robots who do exactly what you say all the time and never think for themselves and are therefore "perfect", or you can create a creature with free will that can choose to obey you or not and can make any number of other choices but as a result some wrong choices will make the creature suffer.

The point is there is a trade-off. Even God can't create a scenario whereby people are both robots who obey unquestionably and also have free will. The two concepts are diametrically opposed.
There are plenty of FACTS for those capable of critical thought.
Here you go standing on a pedestal again, effectively saying only those who agree with you are capable of critical thought.
Based on the physics of this universe, we know the decay rate of certain isotopes and can use those FACTS to determine their age and thus, the age of the planet.
Facts and theories are two different things. All too often people confuse the two, sometimes deliberately (as is often the case for the THEORY of evolution).

Facts can't be disputed. Theories are conclusions drawn from facts that CAN be disputed, and alternative theories CAN be formed based on the same set of facts.

Just because a theory is accepted by mainstream science doesn't make it magically turn into a fact.

Evolution and creation are both THEORIES on the origin of humans and other life. Neither is a fact.
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