All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Vote for best group of drafted QBs
2/27/2013 12:03 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/27/2013 11:45:00 AM (view original):
It seems people consider "winning Super Bowls" to be the most important attribute.  Which is fine, but I'd be curious to see what would have happened if Montana was a Falcon and Bradshaw was a Brown.  Are they suddenly significantly worse QBs if they can't win Super Bowls?
You don't seem to get it.  They WON with the hands they were dealt.  Throw out your hypotheticals and your coulda-shoulda-woulda possibilities.  They WON the Super Bowl.  Bernie Kosar did not.  Dan Marino did not.  Jim Kelly did not.  Joe Montana was drafted by a 2-14 team and won four Super Bowls.  Terry Bradshaw was drafted by a 1-13 team (I think) and won four Super Bowls.  Troy Aikman was drafted by a 1-15 team and won three Super Bowls.

Don't you think they might be at least part of the reason those teams won so often?
2/27/2013 12:14 PM
I do think they played a large role.  There is a correlation between the talent of the QB and winning Super Bowls.  But your argument of "Bradshaw was drafted by a 1-15 team" is unfair because it gives the impression Bradshaw was the reason they became a Super Bowl contender.  He's one of the reasons.  Their defense became pretty damn good too.

If LeBron stayed with the Cavs, and never won a championship, would he be any less talented than he is now?  Would he not be an "all-time great player" because the team around him wasn't very good?
2/27/2013 12:18 PM
Do you rank Bradshaw over Marino?
2/27/2013 12:24 PM

You went NBA?  About the only place you could go where there's MORE of an emphasis on titles in terms of defining an elite player's legacy than is typically assigned to quarterbacks in the NFL?  Do you remember what was being said about LeBron right up until the point where he actually won a title?
 

2/27/2013 12:33 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/27/2013 12:18:00 PM (view original):
Do you rank Bradshaw over Marino?
No.  Because Marino's accumulation of statistics is overwhelming.  Guys like Marino and Favre who do it for years and years and years build up some equity that in many ways, can overwhelm a Super Bowl-heavy resume.  In the regular season, I'd take Marino all day long.  In the playoffs, I'd take Bradshaw.
2/27/2013 12:48 PM
I think the reason the Montana group is winning is because of name recognition.
2/27/2013 1:00 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/27/2013 12:14:00 PM (view original):
I do think they played a large role.  There is a correlation between the talent of the QB and winning Super Bowls.  But your argument of "Bradshaw was drafted by a 1-15 team" is unfair because it gives the impression Bradshaw was the reason they became a Super Bowl contender.  He's one of the reasons.  Their defense became pretty damn good too.

If LeBron stayed with the Cavs, and never won a championship, would he be any less talented than he is now?  Would he not be an "all-time great player" because the team around him wasn't very good?
Do you think Pittsburgh wins four Super Bowls (and keeps Oakland and Miami from winning more) with Terry Hanratty?  Joe Gilliam?

Having a top-notch QB allows a team to draft for other positions.  That's why they got better.  They KNEW they had the most important position sewn up for a decade or more, and could afford to stockpile on defense.  The 49ers drafted Montana in 1979, so they knew in 1981 the major problem was on defense, so they drafted Lott, Wright, and Williamson.  They picked up Hacksaw Reynolds and Fred Dean.  They didn't have to go looking for an offense. 
2/27/2013 1:34 PM
I'm not going to do the number crunching, but if someone is bored, it'd be interesting to compare each group's cummulative stats in terms of 1) Total yards, 2) TD-INT ratio, 3) rings. It'll give us some idea of which teams are the most well-rounded in terms of the key criteria people have been using.

My totals are 165,772 yards, 1,076/746 TD-INT, and 4 rings.

I doubt I'm at the top in any of those (probably close in yards), but I also doubt I'm near the bottom. I may not have the best team, but I think it's one of the more well rounded.
2/27/2013 1:43 PM
145612 Passing Yards, 1107/744 TD-INT, 446-261-17 career record, and 6 Super Bowl Champs
2/27/2013 1:48 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 2/27/2013 1:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 2/27/2013 12:14:00 PM (view original):
I do think they played a large role.  There is a correlation between the talent of the QB and winning Super Bowls.  But your argument of "Bradshaw was drafted by a 1-15 team" is unfair because it gives the impression Bradshaw was the reason they became a Super Bowl contender.  He's one of the reasons.  Their defense became pretty damn good too.

If LeBron stayed with the Cavs, and never won a championship, would he be any less talented than he is now?  Would he not be an "all-time great player" because the team around him wasn't very good?
Do you think Pittsburgh wins four Super Bowls (and keeps Oakland and Miami from winning more) with Terry Hanratty?  Joe Gilliam?

Having a top-notch QB allows a team to draft for other positions.  That's why they got better.  They KNEW they had the most important position sewn up for a decade or more, and could afford to stockpile on defense.  The 49ers drafted Montana in 1979, so they knew in 1981 the major problem was on defense, so they drafted Lott, Wright, and Williamson.  They picked up Hacksaw Reynolds and Fred Dean.  They didn't have to go looking for an offense. 
Plenty of QBs get drafted early and the team doesn't make the moves to improve, despite the QB playing well.  

Maybe a better analogy of what I'm trying to say - 2 people work in sales.  Salesman A and Salesman B sell widgets.  Salesman A is given no direction, he's just told to find leads on his own.  Salesman B is given leads, has access to the incoming sales line, is given money to spend on networking events, etc.  Salesman A sells 500 widgets, Salesman B sells 550 widgets.  Who is the better salesman?

And we both agree that winning Super Bowls improve the QB's standing in this discussion.  I just don't value it nearly as much as you do.
2/27/2013 2:11 PM
Elway/Staubach/Warner/McNabb:

143,795 yards
895 TD's
580 INT's

13 Conference championships
5 Super Bowl rings
2/27/2013 2:16 PM
Agreed about winning Super Bowls should not have as much weight as some want to give them.  I think Conference championships should be part of the equation.

Roger Staubach was 2-2 in Super Bowls.  Two losses to Pittsburgh.  Doesn't make Staubach any less of a quarterback.  That's more a reflection of the Cowboys matching up against the Steelers in those years.
2/27/2013 2:24 PM
Playoff success counts, not just Super Bowls.  Jim Kelly getting to FOUR Super Bowls is more impressive than Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, , Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, et al... winning their one Super Bowl appearance.

A lot of you guys put Steve Young and Peyton Manning up near the top.  Those guys LOST way more championship games than they won.  Manning to Brady, Young to Favre and Aikman. 

Staubach lost 2 Super Bowls to the best team of the era.  Elway lost 3 Super Bowls to superior teams.  BUT THEY GOT THERE.  Multiple times.  And won at least twice..
2/27/2013 2:33 PM
Namath is the worst QB in this list.  By far.

I can't say this isn't true because I don't know much about the old school QBs.

I can say Brady at least has a solid shot at worst QB on the list from the more recent eras.
It seems people consider "winning Super Bowls" to be the most important attribute.  Which is fine, but I'd be curious to see what would have happened if Montana was a Falcon and Bradshaw was a Brown.  Are they suddenly significantly worse QBs if they can't win Super Bowls?

Super Bowl wins are the single biggest reason QBs get over rated. A QB should be evaluated based upon his skills and abilities. Winning matters too, but a QB doesn't do it all himself, so someone who wins multiple Super Bowls may not be nearly the QB someone who never even plays in one might be.
In the regular season, I'd take Marino all day long.  In the playoffs, I'd take Bradshaw.

I'd take Marino over Bradshaw in any game at any time. Marino was more skilled and just played better. Bradshaw is over rated enough that the only player I know who is certainly more over rated than Bradshaw is Brady.
A lot of you guys put Steve Young and Peyton Manning up near the top.  Those guys LOST way more championship games than they won.  Manning to Brady, Young to Favre and Aikman. 

I would take Steve Young over Favre or Aikman (though not by much), and I would take Peyton Manning over Brady every day all day long.
2/27/2013 2:36 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 2/27/2013 2:24:00 PM (view original):
Playoff success counts, not just Super Bowls.  Jim Kelly getting to FOUR Super Bowls is more impressive than Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, , Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, et al... winning their one Super Bowl appearance.

A lot of you guys put Steve Young and Peyton Manning up near the top.  Those guys LOST way more championship games than they won.  Manning to Brady, Young to Favre and Aikman. 

Staubach lost 2 Super Bowls to the best team of the era.  Elway lost 3 Super Bowls to superior teams.  BUT THEY GOT THERE.  Multiple times.  And won at least twice..
No, Manning lost to the Pats.  He didn't face Brady.  Young lost to the Packers and Cowboys.  Troy Aikman never dealt with Deion Sanders, etc.
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