All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > SimLeague Baseball > Progressive league trades...unfair??
10/21/2012 2:05 AM
so - rehashing old argument time ;-)  

from the Hank Aaron trade - I received Hank Aaron - and the other owner (my brother) received Tony Conigliaro and Jim Northrup through the draft (as well as Rudy may, but this is just a look at the offensive side).    In a progressive, I just finished a 1970 season and pulled the stats of the 3 players in question:


OFFENSE
Name games AB runs hits 2B 3B HR rbi BB HBP SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS RC RC/27
Aaron, Hank 147 539 89 165 27 0 33 148 90 3 0 1 0.306 0.404 0.54 0.944 118 8.02
Northrup, Jim 158 560 97 149 20 2 20 83 75 7 0 0 0.266 0.359 0.416 0.775 85.65 5.31
Conigliaro, Tony 152 626 95 163 24 1 40 118 55 4 0 0 0.26 0.323 0.494 0.816 100.3 5.53
Aaron's totals 147 539 89 165 27 0 33 148 90 3 0 1 0.306 0.404 0.54 0.944 118 8.02
AJ, JN, TC totals 310 ## 192 312 44 3 60 201 120 11 0 0 0.263 0.341 0.455 796 185.9 10.84
DEFENSE
Player SN Pos G GS Inn PO A E DP + - FLD% RF
Aaron, Hank 1970 RF 134 131 1,195.70 251 4 3 0 11 0 0.988 1.92
Northrup, Jim 1970 LF 147 147 1,268.70 292 6 3 1 10 0 0.99 2.11
Conigliaro, Tony 1970 RF 152 152 1,361.70 247 4 8 0 0 2 0.969 1.66


Do you think it'd really be better to have just Aaron as opposed to two players and a pitcher?

10/21/2012 2:23 AM
Yes, based on value above replacement level I would rather have Aaron in that situation...
10/21/2012 2:36 AM
so you'd rather have 89 runs scored over 192?  or 148 RBI over 201?  I don't see how that makes sense.  

If I have a team and you give me the choice of picking both those players or just aaron and I pick the two players every time.  
10/22/2012 5:34 PM

Who was your other OF to go along with Aaron? When you look at 2 players vs 1, the 2 players should outperform the 1. When you combine with the stats of your other OF, I would imagine that the numbers will skew back to Aaron's side.

10/22/2012 7:04 PM
Yeah, I'm willing to bet that Aaron plus the best outfielder drafted in the third round or later combined to look better than Conigliaro plus Northrup.
10/23/2012 2:28 AM
obviously Aaron + someone is going to be better than 2 above average players - but that wasn't the trade - the trade was Aaron for the 2 above average players (plus Rudy May) - and so the question isn't, which team now has a better OF/team - the question is, is this trade fair?  


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10/23/2012 8:33 AM
Posted by doubletruck on 10/23/2012 8:03:00 AM (view original):
Yawwwwn ...

The question is how long ryno keeps this going in order to feel O.K. about a trade he made that significantly helped shift the league balance in his favor.

I'm on no-ones side in this, but why would he feel bad about making a trade that favors himself?
10/23/2012 12:34 PM
I think Rudy May for Hank Aaron is a fair deal in 1970.
10/23/2012 1:13 PM
As the other owner involved in the trade, I feel like I got the better end of the trade. I get more offensive production from two OF positions (and fill a position I had a need in) than I would have from Aaron alone. Plus I got a quality pitcher and was able to use my current picks to add depth instead of filling holes. From a WAR perspective I'll break even to being slightly behind the first two-three seasons, but from that point on its not even close.

Because of the controversy surrounding the trade I've been tracking the full value of each of the players and the relative value to each team had the trade not been made. It's fairly close to even this first season. I'll post the details later when I'm not on my phone.
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10/23/2012 1:55 PM
Posted by chargingryno on 10/23/2012 2:28:00 AM (view original):
obviously Aaron + someone is going to be better than 2 above average players - but that wasn't the trade - the trade was Aaron for the 2 above average players (plus Rudy May) - and so the question isn't, which team now has a better OF/team - the question is, is this trade fair?  


I'm not saying the trade was in any way unethical or "wrong."  But if you think you can say "this was the trade, and let's just pretend I couldn't draft another outfielder in the third round with minimal opportunity cost and wind up winning the battle.  So the trade was fair" you really are extremely dense.  The trade didn't include "someone," an average outfielder.  But you can absolutely get that guy without costing your team much of anything, so effectively any trade includes that.  I would argue that any trade that is unbalanced in numbers inherently includes the replacement player you ultimately draft.  Technically it earns you your end-of-the-draft pick, but you can also look at it being Aaron + your third round pick + your last pick + moving your need/want you would have filled in the 3rd to the 4th + 4th to the 5th, etc.  In most prog drafts those 3rd-4th, 4th-5th shifts are pretty painless.  Frequently I find that the other guy I was considering in the 4th is still around in the 5th, if not the 7th if the draft goes that far.  In the late rounds typically different teams are looking for different things.  So you don't get to pretend that the extra outfielder you could have picked up if you needed him doesn't count.  He does.  And if you take the pitcher out, I don't think it would be a fair trade at all.  As it is I have no problem with the trade, as I pointed out many pages ago, but I do think the way you're trying to justify it right now is laughable.
10/23/2012 4:49 PM
I'm not trying to justify anything - I found happened to have northrup and tony c in another league and noticed how good they played - so I looked at Aaron's stats and compared them - i love this game because of the stats - and so when I find interesting stats i post them.  

I don't completely follow your logic though - because that 3rd round pick or last pick of the draft would be there regardless - so how does that effect the trade whatsoever?  


10/23/2012 4:51 PM
Posted by bottomlee on 10/23/2012 8:33:00 AM (view original):
Posted by doubletruck on 10/23/2012 8:03:00 AM (view original):
Yawwwwn ...

The question is how long ryno keeps this going in order to feel O.K. about a trade he made that significantly helped shift the league balance in his favor.

I'm on no-ones side in this, but why would he feel bad about making a trade that favors himself?
don't you know that as the 4th best team in the league I've completely screwed up the leagues integrity from these trades!! ;-)  I mean - how can the league possibly compete against a team with a rockin offense and sub par pitching staff
10/23/2012 8:14 PM
Posted by chargingryno on 10/21/2012 2:05:00 AM (view original):
so - rehashing old argument time ;-)  

from the Hank Aaron trade - I received Hank Aaron - and the other owner (my brother) received Tony Conigliaro and Jim Northrup through the draft (as well as Rudy may, but this is just a look at the offensive side).    In a progressive, I just finished a 1970 season and pulled the stats of the 3 players in question:


OFFENSE
Name games AB runs hits 2B 3B HR rbi BB HBP SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS RC RC/27
Aaron, Hank 147 539 89 165 27 0 33 148 90 3 0 1 0.306 0.404 0.54 0.944 118 8.02
Northrup, Jim 158 560 97 149 20 2 20 83 75 7 0 0 0.266 0.359 0.416 0.775 85.65 5.31
Conigliaro, Tony 152 626 95 163 24 1 40 118 55 4 0 0 0.26 0.323 0.494 0.816 100.3 5.53
Aaron's totals 147 539 89 165 27 0 33 148 90 3 0 1 0.306 0.404 0.54 0.944 118 8.02
AJ, JN, TC totals 310 ## 192 312 44 3 60 201 120 11 0 0 0.263 0.341 0.455 796 185.9 10.84
DEFENSE
Player SN Pos G GS Inn PO A E DP + - FLD% RF
Aaron, Hank 1970 RF 134 131 1,195.70 251 4 3 0 11 0 0.988 1.92
Northrup, Jim 1970 LF 147 147 1,268.70 292 6 3 1 10 0 0.99 2.11
Conigliaro, Tony 1970 RF 152 152 1,361.70 247 4 8 0 0 2 0.969 1.66


Do you think it'd really be better to have just Aaron as opposed to two players and a pitcher?

If you weren't trying to justify anything you never would have come back to this thread, and you definitely wouldn't ask the general public "Do you think it'd really be better to have just Aaron as opposed to two players and a pitcher?"
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