All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > SimLeague Baseball > Progressive league trades...unfair??
7/11/2012 11:24 AM
You people really think Pete Rose for Dave McNally before their rookie years is a defensible trade? That's insane.
7/11/2012 12:11 PM
The trade included Don McMahon according to the first post above.  And no, I would have no problem with 2 owners making that trade.

7/11/2012 1:37 PM
daveymac, I do think that anyone who saw the 1970 World Series does not think that obtaining Dave McNally for Pete Rose is necessarily a bad trade. Again, as many have pointed out here, it depends what you are building for. Also, if you need pitching, or if one more great starter will put you over the top, you are willing to give up Pete Rose. It depends. 

It is true that I did a double take on a couple of the trades, in part because the Mantle trade followed close on the heels of the Aaron trade, which I thought a good trade for both parties. So it was clear that one team was building an all-star lineup. But this is not unique to SSSP. 

More disturbing is my inability to annoy boogerlips enough to make the top of his list. I am losing my edge. 
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7/11/2012 3:37 PM
If you're picking first overall it's unlikely - certainly not unheard of, but unlikely - that you're in a position where "one more great starter will put you over the top."  That said, I do NOT love Pete Rose in progressives.  He'll put up good offensive numbers, but he moves around so often defensively it's a little tough to build a team around him.  Given that pitching is typically a little harder to come by than hitting, I don't think trading Rose for two useful pitchers is a terrible thing to do.  Rose is never a top-tier hitter even in his prime.  People overrate his prog value I think based on the fact that he'll retire from progs with similarly impressive numbers to his RL numbers.  So much of that is based on longevity.  It's much, much easier to "replace" Rose with a series of two or three guys who would be considered vastly lesser bats simply because they only had a few good seasons than, say, Mantle or Aaron.  None of Rose's seasons are remotely as valuable or difficult to substitute for as '68 McNally.
7/11/2012 5:04 PM
I totally understand why people would be skittish about trades between brothers in a league.  You just can't monitor behind the scenes what else could possibly be in the mix.  The trades may very well be fair.  It is my experience the people who complain most, the people who make the biggest stink about this trade or that trade are people who don't have the social skills to trade much to begin with.  So - you have and element of jealousy and immaturity.  The reaction shouldn't be, man, he got screwed on that trade, that's not fair, veto, veto he's a bad guy.  The reaction should be DARN, I wish I took the time to finesse that deal for myself.
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7/12/2012 1:41 AM
I don't know that HBD is quite analogous to progressives though. In a progressive, you know exactly what you're getting, all of the players stats are firmly laid out in front of you, the only variable is in where exactly a future draft pick might land. In HBD, there are many variables as to how players futures will develop. There's tools and ratings and investing that can be used to minimize the variability, but there's still a large amount of variability. I've only played a couple of seasons of HBD and a little beta testIng, but I vetoed the majority of the trades when I played my seasons. I also tend to veto a large number of AAA trades in OLs and theme leagues. Which I would see as being more analogous to HBD than to progressives. 
7/12/2012 2:13 AM
Posted by boogerlips on 7/12/2012 12:23:00 AM (view original):
I'm not a progressive player, but I veto a lot of deals in HBD. No swap can be a perfectly even exchange of talent, but it needs to be in the ballpark IMO. If it isn't, I veto it and suggest in the world chat that owners consider doing the same. There's nothing ungentlemanly/immature/jealous about that. It usually only irritates the guy who "won" the trade and wants it to go through really bad. The sign of a fair trade is one where neither of the two owners involved are particularly upset if it gets vetoed. 

Now, if it goes into name calling or something, sure thats too far. But I have no problem with discussions on fairness. In fact, I wouldn't want to play in a league where owners didn't. If nobody cares and everything goes, thats a quick way for the best teams and the worst teams to get further apart and your league/world is less desirable. Good luck finding someone to take over the crappy franchise.

In HBD, owners who "have the social skills to get a great deal off of someone" are called trade rapers. Usually they prey on noobs. Some of them are just gifted at coaxing talent away from people. Either way, they aren't good for HBD worlds and I can't imagine they'd be good for Progs. I always offer what I think are fair trades. If If I busted out my "social skills" and made a bunch of bad offers, I could probably find someone to accept one of them, but I'm better than that.

Having said all that, someone will no doubt incorrectly assume I'm accusing the two trade partners in question in this thread of being what I've just described......but you'd be incorrect. Maybe they're swell. Maybe they're something less than swell. I don't care and don't care to look at the players involved. I just wanted to make a point that its great that people care enough to talk about it.

This was initially a topic in our trade thread, after a long winded argument with no change in opinions, our commissioner put a stop to it.  Then once the season was going I traded my back up 2B  (to Pete Rose) Julian Javiar, and 1 year filler starter Dick Stigman for 1 year SP Jim Bouton - the trade received 3 vetoes - one from the other NL front-runner, and two from my division mates (daveymac was one of them).  After the trade went through dmac asked questions about the trade going through with vetoes, and when told that a trade needed 6 votes to vetoes he again started making comments about the previous trades.  

I didn't want to get into another argument in the league thread so I sent him the following sitemail to both say my peace, and keep it between us and not get put into the league -(sorry boogerlips):


daveymac,

Look, I understand that you don't get the trades that were made, but you know what? you're the only one. You might have 1 or 2 owners with you but thats all. Take a step back and realize that if these trades were as bs as you think, then maybe more than 3 of the 16 owners would say something. 

Everyone has had there chance to speak against/vote against these trades and they didn't. Whats ruining this league is the constant complaining and accusing by you at the moment, not any trades. 

I don't consider you the know all/end all for WIS. Everyone has their own opinions on players and strategies. Just because you don't agree doesn't make one right and the other wrong - in fact, given the amount of support you have I'm inclined to think you're wrong. For each trade, there was a purpose and a reason for both teams involved:

Trade 1 - #1 overall pick from XXXXX for #4 overall pick and Don McMahon:
- yes I got rose and he got mcnally - but anything could have happened and he could have possibly gotten lolich or stargell - but mcnally worked best with his team. For a team in need of pitching - getting mcnally and mcmahon for rose isn't a bad deal. could he have possibly gotten more? sure - but just because he didn't doesn't mean it was a bad deal. ( and for the record, I asked what he wanted for the #1 pick and he came back with that offer - so you can't say that I am tricking anyone into accepting "bad" deals)

Trade 2 - Tony Conigliaro, 1st round pick in 1965, and their 1965 2nd round pick for Henry Aaron-OF, and a 1964 2nd round pick:
- there are a couple of things -you need to remember in this trade, first is that 65 is a stacked draft, second is that ballparks have a great effect on players abilities, and last that in the right ballpark, aaron and tony c aren't as far apart as it may seem, Fenway is the right park. Is he a downgrade? certainly. Which is why he received a 65 1st and 2nd round pick. Those picks easily even out, if not put the favor in for Boston.

Trade 3 - Mickey Mantle for Alex Johnson and Dave Morehead:
-I tried talking to you about this already, but you just couldn't understand that Johnson was a better player in the years that cardsfan is targeting, and so getting a solid OF, and a innings eater pitcher for a end of his career OF was a great trade for him (remember he already got McNally who's great in the early 70's). You don't have to agree with it, but the stats were already presented. 

Trade 4 - Roger Maris and a 3rd for Phil Ortega:
- I really don't understand your gripe on this one. Maris has 1 good yr, with a couple useful PT seasons, whereas Ortega has two very solid 200+IP seasons in the coming seasons. Why would you not accept this if you were playing for the future?

Again, you don't have to agree, I personally don't care what you think because I know that my integrity is high and that I play this game fair. If you wanna disagree with me, disagree with me, but don't continue to make a public spectacle because it honestly just makes the entire league look bad. If you had 6 people backing you up saying that these trades aren't fair and that they're bs, then I would take them back and re-evaluate my player outlooks, but seeing as how you don't - I'm not going to stop trying to make my team the best it can be. 
From now on, if you have a problem with one of my trades, please sitemail myself or the owners involved or bheid who has done an excellent job in running this league and making just decisions. 


chad


the reply I
 got was: 

You are wasting your breath, these trades were collusive and you know it.

The Rose one is the worst one of them all!

Just stop. You ruined the league. 


It was after this that I decided I wanted to see what other owners on this site thought of the trades, thus this thread.   



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7/12/2012 3:27 AM
Posted by boogerlips on 7/12/2012 3:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by just4me on 7/12/2012 1:41:00 AM (view original):
I don't know that HBD is quite analogous to progressives though. In a progressive, you know exactly what you're getting, all of the players stats are firmly laid out in front of you, the only variable is in where exactly a future draft pick might land. In HBD, there are many variables as to how players futures will develop. There's tools and ratings and investing that can be used to minimize the variability, but there's still a large amount of variability. I've only played a couple of seasons of HBD and a little beta testIng, but I vetoed the majority of the trades when I played my seasons. I also tend to veto a large number of AAA trades in OLs and theme leagues. Which I would see as being more analogous to HBD than to progressives. 
You know what you're getting in HBD. I'd give it a ratio of 90:100 (HBD:Prog) in terms of knowing what you're getting. There aren't development variables. Its very straight forward.
i tried hbd for one season.  most of what i enjoy about wis is using real players, so it didn't really suit me. but i know a lot of owners swear by it
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7/13/2012 2:41 PM
In my 1991 LIVE prog Randy Johnson and a 2nd-rd. pick were just traded for Hrbek and Canseco.
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