212 plus plays Topic

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Finally won a world series with a range team, but I was actually disappointed:
(1) "Only" 173 plus plays (100 more than anyone else in the league, but still, not up to the standards of this thread.  This was despite putting them in Hilltop, which I would have expected to yield a lot more opportunities.
(2) I cheated and used 1908 Joss, which I really prefer not to do in OLs.

Player SN Pos G GS Inn PO A E DP + - Fld% RF
Lyons, Denny 1889 3B 157 157 1,391.0 163 396 36 24 32 0 .939 3.62
Lindell, Johnny 1944 RF 153 153 1,380.0 347 7 5 0 22 0 .986 2.31
Carey, Max 1921 LF 147 147 1,308.0 266 2 9 0 23 0 .968 1.84
North, Billy 1975 CF 142 138 1,244.0 361 5 14 0 23 1 .963 2.65
Collins, Eddie 1921 2B 142 138 1,237.0 348 523 30 85 12 0 .967 6.34
Carter, Gary 1975 C 142 138 1,233.0 288 70 10 2 0 0 .973 2.61
Lanier, Hal 1968 SS 141 137 1,202.7 299 469 15 86 22 0 .981 5.75
O'Brien, Billy 1887 1B 150 150 1,177.0 1544 139 10 102 22 0 .994 12.87
Joss, Addie 1908 P 48 0 365.3 17 22 0 1 2 0 1.000 .96
Willis, Vic 1907 P 50 0 334.3 16 23 1 0 0 1 .975 1.05
Summers, Ed 1909 P 47 0 324.3 21 26 1 1 2 0 .979 1.30
Reiber, Theron (P) 2015 1B 102 12 274.7 329 33 3 36 6 0 .992 11.86
Lamm, Christian (P) 2015 C 50 24 225.0 57 19 2 3 0 0 .974 3.04
Wedinger, Gordon (P) 2015 SS 50 21 201.0 58 83 5 19 0 1 .966 6.31
Asente, Benjamin (P) 2015 2B 39 20 182.0 59 70 6 14 1 1 .956 6.38
Donohoe, Jimmie (P) 2015 CF 36 19 171.0 54 0 3 0 0 0 .947 2.84
Steele, Elmer 1908 P 80 0 107.7 6 5 0 0 0 0 1.000 .92
Benz, Joe 1917 P 42 0 80.0 8 2 0 0 1 0 1.000 1.13
Guiler, Lincoln (P) 2015 P 22 0 68.7 4 6 0 1 3 0 1.000 1.31
Shoup, Antonio (P) 2015 3B 28 5 67.0 9 18 2 2 0 1 .931 3.63
Shoup, Antonio (P) 2015 LF 7 7 60.0 17 0 1 0 0 0 .944 2.55
Broadnax, Jason (AAA/P) 2015 P 18 0 51.0 2 1 0 0 1 0 1.000 .53
Wedinger, Gordon (P) 2015 RF 4 4 34.0 7 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.85
McDowell, Jack 1987 P 12 0 28.3 0 2 0 0 0 0 1.000 .64
Walsh, Ed 1915 P 29 0 27.7 2 3 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.63
Donohoe, Jimmie (P) 2015 LF 2 2 18.0 3 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.50
Donohoe, Jimmie (P) 2015 RF 2 2 18.0 4 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 2.00
Shoup, Antonio (P) 2015 RF 2 2 17.0 3 0 1 0 0 0 .750 1.59
Reiber, Theron (P) 2015 LF 2 2 17.0 4 0 0 0 1 0 1.000 2.12
Asente, Benjamin (P) 2015 SS 6 0 11.0 2 3 1 0 0 0 .833 4.09
O'Brien, Billy 1887 RF 1 1 9.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.00
Carey, Max 1921 CF 1 1 9.0 8 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 9.00
Littleton, Wes 2006 P 6 0 6.7 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .00
Delgado, Wilson 2003 SS 4 0 5.3 2 3 0 0 0 0 1.000 8.44
Shoup, Antonio (P) 2015 2B 4 0 4.0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1.000 2.25
Shoup, Antonio (P) 2015 SS 3 0 4.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 4.50
Medina, Luis 1988 1B 2 0 3.0 5 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 15.00
Shoup, Antonio (P) 2015 1B 3 0 2.3 2 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 11.57
Delgado, Wilson 2003 2B 1 0 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 18.00
Lamm, Christian (P) 2015 1B 1 0 1.0 3 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 27.00
Jennings, Hughie 1893 CF 4 4 34.0 12 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 3.44
Kazanski, Ted 1954 SS 4 4 34.0 12 15 3 3 0 0 .900 7.15
Gil, Gus 1967 2B 4 4 34.0 13 13 0 4 0 1 1.000 6.88
Oldfield, Dave 1886 LF 4 4 34.0 8 0 0 0 0 1 1.000 2.12
Bishop, Bill 1887 P 4 0 25.0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .000 .00
Diaz, Alex 1998 LF 12 0 21.0 7 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 3.00
Figueroa, Nelson 2010 P 12 0 13.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 .69
Matusz, Brian 2011 P 1 0 9.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.00
Shaw, Jeff 1990 P 1 0 9.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .00
Laskey, Bill 1985 P 1 0 8.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.13
TEAM TOTALS -- -- 1925 1296 13,122.0 4374 1966 158 384 173 9 .976 --


1/29/2015 9:59 AM
The team obviously made a lot of errors (158), and gave up a fair number of hits:

Player SN T G GS CG SHO W L SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO OAV OBP SLG WHIP ERA
Joss, Addie 1908 R 48 47 13 2 29 6 0 0 365.3 358 125 110 4 35 78 .253 .273 .316 1.08 2.71
Willis, Vic 1907 R 50 44 9 0 21 16 1 1 334.3 363 162 131 12 83 61 .273 .317 .351 1.33 3.53
Summers, Ed 1909 R 47 47 2 0 26 12 0 0 324.3 328 149 125 13 75 67 .261 .306 .351 1.24 3.47
Steele, Elmer 1908 R 80 0 0 0 9 2 9 13 107.7 95 27 25 1 12 22 .231 .255 .280 .99 2.09
Benz, Joe 1917 R 43 6 0 0 6 2 3 3 80.0 102 44 39 4 15 16 .302 .334 .417 1.46 4.39
Guiler, Lincoln (P) 2015 L 22 6 4 0 1 7 1 1 68.7 157 142 141 9 88 7 .464 .574 .666 3.57 18.48
Broadnax, Jason (AAA/P) 2015 R 18 3 3 0 0 5 1 2 51.0 107 91 82 7 50 19 .421 .514 .626 3.08 14.47
McDowell, Jack 1987 R 12 2 2 0 1 2 3 3 28.3 29 20 15 0 15 8 .259 .341 .321 1.55 4.76
Walsh, Ed 1915 R 29 0 0 0 2 1 21 23 27.7 23 10 9 0 8 18 .219 .274 .276 1.12 2.93
Littleton, Wes 2006 R 6 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 6.7 5 3 3 0 2 0 .200 .259 .200 1.05 4.05
Bishop, Bill 1887 R 4 4 3 0 0 4 0 0 25.0 57 56 50 2 28 7 .432 .545 .583 3.40 18.00
Figueroa, Nelson 2010 R 13 0 0 0 4 1 0 1 13.0 20 16 16 1 10 3 .351 .441 .544 2.31 11.08
Matusz, Brian 2011 L 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 9.0 30 25 25 4 8 2 .545 .603 1.000 4.22 25.00
Shaw, Jeff 1990 R 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 9.0 15 12 7 2 6 2 .366 .447 .659 2.33 7.00
Laskey, Bill 1985 R 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 8.0 9 2 2 0 5 2 .321 .429 .393 1.75 2.25
TEAM TOTALS -- -- 375 162 39 2 100 62 39 47 1,458.0 1698 884 780 59 440 312 .288 .340 .384 1.47 4.81

The team's ERA is highly misleading...take out the performance by mop-ups and AAA guys and the ERA is 3.23 (in Hilltop remember). 

The offense did well enough to win...here are the stats for the starters:

Player SN B G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO HBP SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS STRK L STRK
Lindell, Johnny 1944 R 153 663 105 221 29 12 18 136 43 57 5 2 0 .333 .375 .495 .869 1 16
Lyons, Denny 1889 R 157 663 117 245 49 8 13 117 73 51 8 0 0 .370 .436 .526 .962 3 42
Collins, Eddie 1921 L 143 618 114 211 14 4 1 64 59 21 4 0 0 .341 .402 .382 .784 4 29
Carey, Max 1921 S 148 612 128 202 40 1 12 93 70 26 8 27 14 .330 .405 .458 .862 2 16
North, Billy 1975 S 142 576 97 183 26 5 0 79 62 63 4 25 18 .318 .385 .380 .766 4 16
O'Brien, Billy 1887 R 151 560 88 168 20 5 27 109 36 27 4 0 0 .300 .342 .498 .840 1 10
Carter, Gary 1975 R 145 560 85 171 14 3 15 111 57 74 1 0 0 .305 .367 .421 .788 3 15
Lanier, Hal 1968 R 141 516 49 118 15 0 0 57 11 49 2 0 0 .229 .246 .258 .504 0 8

They went 11-4 in the postseason, and just won round 1 of their TOC, 3-1.

So, still not quite the success I was looking for (200 or more plus plays AND a world series title), but probably my most successful range team to date.
1/29/2015 10:05 AM
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Posted by doubletruck on 1/31/2015 12:36:00 PM (view original):
I really don't understand much of this. First, how can team fielding that steals 1.3 hits a game make much difference over the long haul of a season, especially if having a weaker offense might cost you two hits or more per game? Second, are there other hit-robbing plays that don't show up as plus plays?

Based on total chances in 1987, Garry Templeton made 5.2 plays per game, and is WIS rated for range at A. Ozzie Smith made 5.1 PPG and is rated B+. Barry Larkin made .539 PPG and is rated C and Craig Reynolds made 4.4 PPG and is rated D-. So, does the difference of making only an additional 0.8 PPG merit the difference between having A range and having D- range? If not, then what else is being considered in range ratings -- and how would anything other than chances handled bear on one's range rating?
1.) First, how can team fielding that steals 1.3 hits a game make much difference over the long haul of a season, especially if having a weaker offense might cost you two hits or more per game.  The tradeoff between offense and defense (or more specifically "offense plus defense plus playing time" versus "cost") is one that every owner has to make with every team.  What this thread is about is trying to understand if it is possible to build a winning team by spending extra money on high range players... and for me it's specifically about trying to understand if this strategy for putting together roster is an alternative to the generic "switch-hitting singles hitters with high SB and SB%" team that dominates most OLs.  Clearly there have been enough owners who are successful with this strategy that the answer is "yes, it is."  As to a weaker offense costing you 2 or more hits per game, there is no way the difference is that big.  If it is, you are clearly doing something wrong.  In the league that I most recently posted about here, the team I used ended up with 1782 hits.  Which was the second highest total in the league, and only 11 hits fewer than the #1 team.  We scored 910 runs, 5th most in the league.  Yes, we played in Hilltop, but the other top offense teams also played in plus parks for offense.  I didn't sacrifice anything close to 300 hits in putting together that team.

I guess you COULD put together a high-range team with a really terrible offense, but again, that would mean you are really screwing up the strategy.  The trick is realizing that with the higher range you can spend less on PITCHING, not on hitting.  Trade down either the quality of your pitching (OAV, WHIP, ERC) or the quantity (IP) or both...because the range is going to make up some of the difference.

2.) Are there other hit-robbing plays that don't show up as plus plays? No.

3.) So, does the difference of making only an additional 0.8 PPG merit the difference between having A range and having D- range? If not, then what else is being considered in range ratings -- and how would anything other than chances handled bear on one's range rating?  WIS doesn't use the raw number of plays made (putouts and assists) as their sole factor in determining the range grades.  The knowledge base is not specific about this.  Here's what they say: Range factors are based on WhatIfSports.com's Relative Range Factor values that take actual stats and better account for actual team makeup and balls in play allowed. I take "actual team makeup" to probably mean number of innings pitched by lefties versus righties... Bill James and others have demonstrated that this has a huge impact on the distribution of putouts and assists.  I take "balls in play allowed" to mean that they consider the strikeout rate - and possibly other factors - of the actual pitching staff.  Teams with large numbers of strikeouts obviously tend to have fewer putouts and assists by the rest of the team. 

If you search for the regular shortstops in the 1987 NL, and sort them by RRF-SS, you get the following:
Player Team PA RRF SALARY SS
/162 SS
Thomas, Andres 1987 Atlanta Braves 346 5.73 $1,767,517 C-/A+
Templeton, Garry 1987 San Diego Padres 561 5.61 $3,488,853 B/A
Smith, Ozzie 1987 St. Louis Cardinals 706 5.31 $6,872,047 A+/B+
Uribe, Jose 1987 San Francisco Giants 340 5.26 $2,684,964 B/B
Santana, Rafael 1987 New York Mets 470 4.97 $2,538,980 B/C
Dunston, Shawon 1987 Chicago Cubs 362 4.96 $1,996,468 B/C
Larkin, Barry 1987 Cincinnati Reds 488 4.91 $2,838,613 B-/C
Jeltz, Steve 1987 Philadelphia Phillies 337 4.72 $1,570,898 B/D+
Stillwell, Kurt 1987 Cincinnati Reds 433 4.41 $2,117,935 D/D-
Brooks, Hubie 1987 Montreal Expos 459 4.21 $2,282,721 C-/D-
Reynolds, Craig 1987 Houston Astros 416 3.90 $1,793,142 B/D-

There is a perfect correlation between RRF and the letter grade assigned to range.  The difference between A+ and D- range for a shortstop is roughly 1.25 plays per game. Which is a huge difference.




1/31/2015 4:35 PM
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D-FENS  45-34 at the All-Star Break (Stats below are after the 82nd game - a win in which Billy North made a + play)

Player SN Pos G GS Inn PO A E DP + - Fld% RF
Lajoie, Nap 1908 2B 82 82 736.3 211 277 14 57 23 0 .972 5.96
Donaldson, Josh 2014 3B 82 82 701.3 75 206 8 15 19 0 .972 3.61
Lemon, Chet 1977 LF 82 82 725.0 157 1 4 0 16 0 .975 1.96
Tulowitzki, Troy 2007 SS 81 81 730.3 142 303 6 52 14 0 .987 5.48
Erstad, Darin 2002 1B 82 82 738.3 948 59 0 71 14 0 1.000 12.27
Cameron, Mike 2003 CF 82 82 719.3 229 0 1 0 13 0 .996 2.87
North, Billy 1973 RF 75 75 678.0 157 2 3 0 7 0 .981 2.11
Steele, Elmer 1911 P 15 0 103.3 7 8 0 0 4 0 1.000 1.31
Smith, George 1918 P 37 0 34.7 1 5 0 1 3 0 1.000 1.56
White, Doc 1909 P 15 0 112.0 1 10 1 1 1 0 .917 .88
Nichols, Kid 1905 P 12 0 92.3 4 7 0 0 1 0 1.000 1.07
Beltran, Carlos 1998 CF 6 0 11.0 5 0 0 0 1 0 1.000 4.09
Tudor, John 1988 P 12 0 90.3 2 3 0 1 1 0 1.000 .50
Dyson, Jarrod 2010 LF 8 0 12.3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 .73
Willard, Samuel (P) 2015 3B 8 0 19.0 3 4 0 0 0 0 1.000 3.32
Scheiner, Cole (P) 2015 3B 12 0 19.0 1 2 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.42
Darpel, Clarence (P) 2015 C 13 0 24.3 11 0 1 0 0 0 .917 4.07
Valenzuela, Fernando 1994 P 34 0 29.7 0 1 0 1 0 0 1.000 .30
Darpel, Clarence (P) 2015 LF 1 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .00
Dummitt, Ellis (P) 2015 P 35 0 37.0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1.000 .24
Densler, Robert (P) 2015 RF 7 7 59.0 12 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.83
Young, Cy 1910 P 13 0 90.0 2 5 1 0 0 0 .875 .70
Tobias, Nicolas (P) 2015 P 14 0 11.0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1.000 .82
Willard, Samuel (P) 2015 SS 1 1 9.0 0 4 0 0 0 0 1.000 4.00
Ames, Red 1912 P 16 0 99.0 3 8 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.00
Dyson, Jarrod 2010 CF 6 0 8.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.13
Willard, Samuel (P) 2015 2B 1 0 3.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 3.00
Beltran, Carlos 1998 RF 2 0 2.3 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .00
Darpel, Clarence (P) 2015 CF 1 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .00
Bench, Johnny 1968 C 82 82 715.0 238 36 4 3 0 0 .986 3.45
Beltran, Carlos 1998 1B 1 0 1.0 3 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 27.00
Beltran, Carlos 1998 LF 1 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000 .00
Quinn, Jack 1913 P 36 0 32.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 .56
Wilson, Highball 1904 P 1 0 8.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 2.25
TEAM TOTALS -- -- 956 656 6,654.0 2218 944 43 203 117 1 .987 --
2/3/2015 10:50 AM
I tried a variation on this idea recently, with the following lineup:

C: 1958 Berra
1B: 2007 Youkilis
2B: 1966 Helms
3B: 1954 O'Connell
SS: 1989 HoJo
LF: 1937 Ott
CF: 1946 Hopp
RF: 2001 ManRam

Not a high range team, but each of the above guys fielded 1.000 at the position indicated (which was often not their primary position).

The team finished 86-76, but were in a weak division which they won rather handily, and I rested the starters quite a bit down the stretch...they were probably a 90 win team.  The team fielding percentage was .996, with a total of 23 errors.  

Of those 23:
1 was made by a bench scrub
3 were made by pitchers
14 were made by AAA players
and 5 were made by the starting lineup...all 5 by Yogi Berra, and I believe all 5 were throwing errors during an SB attempt.  Other than that, the lineup fielded perfectly.

The team played in AFCS and scored 874 runs.  They gave up almost 1000 but many of those were allowed by AAA and mop ups...the regular pitching staff was quite good:
08 Joss (27-11, 3.12)
09 Summers (23-14, 3.72)
81 Righetti (6-8, 2.51 as the front half of a tandem)
19 Nehf (12-7, 4.38 as the back half of the tandem)
18 Toney (7-1, 2.66)
plus a handful of other guys.  

That's more cookie than I like to have on the mound, but the defense was expensive enough that I had to emphasize value with the rest of the roster.  

The team lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

As with many of the high-range examples noted above, I believe it's possible to put a competitive team in an OL built around fielding.  The only real cookie in the lineup is HoJo; the rest of those guys aren't seen all that often.  This was only the 2nd time Helms has been used in an OL, according to his performance history, for example.
10/19/2015 4:21 PM

Too bad you had AAA guys playing.  It would be cool to see if anybody could go an entire season with zero errors committed.  Would have to get 1.000 fielding pitchers and a 1.000 fielding bench scrubs.  Not sure how to handle throwing errors by the catcher.

10/19/2015 9:52 PM
Yeah...I did mostly to avoid playing guys with any fatigue...interesting challenge though...could make for a cool theme.
10/19/2015 9:58 PM
I've tried a couple of times to go through a season without any errors in positions 2-9, and never made it for various reasons (i.e. catcher throwing errors and AAA players used to avoid fatigue). I recall once using HOJO at SS and let him drop to 97 or 98% fatigue, and he made an error. This led me to believe the threshold for defensive dropoff is higher than I thought.
10/20/2015 8:46 PM
I see a few examples in this thread where pitcher's parks are used despite having the super A+++ range defense. Isn't the advantage A+++ range provides heightened in a park like Mile High?
11/10/2015 7:27 AM
Hadn't tried this strategy in a while, but just completed a season with a super range team in an OL and won the championship.

Team was called Pasta Diving Jeter and played in Hilltop. 85-77 in the regular season, though that is misleading as I rested players frequently to try to keep them at 100% and also rested players once we clinched a playoff spot so that my pitchers would have max IP left for the postseason. We ended up with something like 25-30 games started by mopup pitchers...this team was really more of a .640 winning percentage team when playing at full strength.

C: 1997 Ivan Rodriguez (no plus plays, of course, but I used him to cut down my opponent's running game...he allowed only 15 SB all season, throwing out 19 of 34 attempted steals.)
1B: 1914 George Burns (20 plus plays in 131 games)
2B: 1933 Hughie Critz (31 plus plays in 142 games)
3B: 1974 Brooks Robinson (18 plus plays in 142 games)
SS: 1920 Dave Bancroft (26 plus plays in 132 games)
LF: 1977 Chet Lemon (24 plus plays in 142 games)
CF: 1984 Kirby Puckett (30 plus plays in 142 games)
RF: 1973 Bill North (20 plus plays in 141 games)

The pitching staff contributed another 15 plus plays, 14 of them by the starting rotation of '03 Joss, '33 Hubbell, and '16 Rudolph. AAA players added four more. Total 188 plus plays. AAA players and scrubs made 13 minus plays, and the team made 105 errors (Bancroft made 29).

Overall the team scored 733 runs (terrible, ranked 22nd out of 24 teams, and that's with Hilltop as our home park.) They allowed 899 runs (18th out of 24 teams). But again both of those totals are misleading, given the number of games we weren't at full strength. Well more than half of those runs were allowed by AAA pitchers or mop ups. This team was actually the best in the league at run prevention - despite playing in Hilltop.

Rudolph (23-13, 6 saves, 2.69 ERA, 1.15 WHIP), Hubbell (25-12, 5 saves, 3.03 ERA, 1.10 WHIP) and Joss (23-10, 3.01 ERA, 1.17 WHIP) finished 1-2-3 in the Cy Young award race. And we won 8 out 9 gold glove awards, with only Kirby Puckett failing to take home the hardware.

The best part of this team for me was the postseason though. They went 11-3 in winning the World Series, outscoring the opposition 65-50 and making 16 plus plays in 14 games.

Four of those plus plays came in the world series clincher, and three of those happened in crucial situations. In the first inning, with 2 on and 2 out (and 3 runs already in for our opponents), Brooks Robinson speared a line drive off the bat of Trea Turner to end the inning. At least 1 run saved.

Brooks was at it again in the 5th inning. 1st and 2nd, no outs, he snagged Chipper Jones's hard grounder and turned it into a force play. Riggs Stephenson singled later in the inning to score 1 run. I assume at least one more run would have scored had Jones's ball been a single. So at least 1 more run saved.

And finally, after we rallied to take a 5-4 lead in the top of the 9th, Hughie Critz turned an Eddie Taubensee grounder that was ticketed for right field into a 4-6-3 double play that effectively snuffed out the last rally. Ed Walsh (1915) got the final out for a 5-4 win and a 4-2 series victory.

The other WS highlight had nothing to do with defense...it was our 4 run rally in the bottom of the 9th of game 3 to win 5-4, capped by Puckett's walkoff 3 run HR. Puckett hit zero HR in real life in 1984, so this was unexpected to say the least.

So, you can still win with a super range team in WIS, and it's fun to run a team out there that is specifically designed to beat the high-single, high-SB offenses that predominate in OLs.

Oh one final note...this was my 100th WIS title, which also made it special.
1/2/2019 6:26 AM (edited)
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