All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > SimLeague Baseball > Demonstrating the biggest problem with this site..
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9/20/2013 7:58 AM
I am a newbie.  I have been member a long time.  I just joined ol recently.  I was amazed at how many owners take a shortcut to win.  The cookies and clones are a joke.  The deadball guys pitching all the time is simply funny.  Base stealing is way too prominent.  It isn't realistic.  Everyone is not Henderson , Brock or Wills.  It cheapens experience.I saw Milacki pitch.  I watched Dilone play.  They aren't Hoyt Wilhelm and Lou Brock.  Come on!

I would make a few simple changes to create hope for newbies and a level playing field for all.

a.  classify open leagues in eras and experience of owners (You have deadball era against deadball teams.  You have experienced winners against experienced people.)

b. do away with clones  (Clones are a joke!)

c. diversify options of open leagues with choices (An ol without top 25 players, cookies, where people actually manage for fun and not just to win credits or championships.)

I met some very helpful people at site.  I appreciate their insight.  I will probably stop entering ol and try theme leagues where playing field may be more level, the competition more realistic, and owners actually put a winning team together without cookies.  Milacki, Collins, Roberts, the great HOJO, and deadball guys may be great if you want only to win but they are taking away from the enjoyment of many.

It makes me think of winning at all costs.  As a retired coach there is a line.  I didn't cross it and won't here to win with cookies. I do not feel it was original purpose of site.

The future of site is something that many more experienced owners truly care about.  People need to listen to them.

9/20/2013 9:19 AM
The gist of the "OL's suck" complaints seems to be that too many owners enter similar cookie teams and that those cookie teams are what you have to have in order to compete.  While it's true there's a lack of imagination with the rosters, you don't actually need those players to win.  I have an OL team right now that's 49-33 and leading a tough division.  Every single hitter on my team has fewer than 50 usages in his Performance History (the average for all 8 is 21 usages).  And I have no speed whatsoever on my team (like my last OL team, which won the WS, this team will finish with 0 stolen bases on the season).  

As for deadball pitchers, I agree they're too effective at suppressing HR's.  There are ways around this, however.  Find HR hitters who normalize well, and put them in Coors or Yankee Stadium III.  Get a couple of on-base % monsters to bat at the top of your order to set the table.  It's not rocket surgery.

Finally, remember that Open Leagues are to SimLeague Baseball as McDonald's is to restaurant dining.  You get what you want fast, the menus are always the same, and while they might be okay in a pinch ultimately they make you sick if you go too often.  


9/20/2013 9:27 AM
a.  classify open leagues in eras and experience of owners (You have deadball era against deadball teams.  You have experienced winners against experienced people.)

Alas, WIS couldn't separate experienced owners from "newbies" even if they tried.  There are a lot aliases on the site.  Even the "Win Your 1st Championship" league has experienced owners signing up to get fat on newbie meat.

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9/20/2013 1:03 PM
One thing I think gets forgotten is that this is not baseball, it is a computer game - one that is supposed to simulate baseball, but still a computer game.  As such, it is programmed; ergo there are ways of exploiting the programming (i.e., certain types of 'players' perform better, or certain strategies are more effective).  These get exploited ad nauseum in OLs, not so much in Themes where the structure can limit or eliminate the programming 'loopholes'. 

The answer used to be frequent updates: every few months or so the engine would be updated to eliminate the currently extant glitches, improving the simulation and getting it closer to a realistic representation.  Anybody who has been here long enough to remember Long A or 1894 strategies can attest to that; the current version is much more realistic than it used to be.  I see the main problem as lack of updates: speedy switch-hitters and deadball pitchers have dominated for too long.  But rest assured, once (if) they update, new cookies will be identified and exploited in OLs.
9/20/2013 1:51 PM
Posted by pinotfan on 9/20/2013 1:03:00 PM (view original):
One thing I think gets forgotten is that this is not baseball, it is a computer game - one that is supposed to simulate baseball, but still a computer game.  As such, it is programmed; ergo there are ways of exploiting the programming (i.e., certain types of 'players' perform better, or certain strategies are more effective).  These get exploited ad nauseum in OLs, not so much in Themes where the structure can limit or eliminate the programming 'loopholes'. 

The answer used to be frequent updates: every few months or so the engine would be updated to eliminate the currently extant glitches, improving the simulation and getting it closer to a realistic representation.  Anybody who has been here long enough to remember Long A or 1894 strategies can attest to that; the current version is much more realistic than it used to be.  I see the main problem as lack of updates: speedy switch-hitters and deadball pitchers have dominated for too long.  But rest assured, once (if) they update, new cookies will be identified and exploited in OLs.
Well said
9/21/2013 12:27 PM
My approach to this game is more basic much like throwing spaghetti against a wall!
9/21/2013 12:30 PM
I try to manage creative, unique theme league's that haven't been done before. Often times it is just as fun researching teams than actually reading the box scores. Hopefully the 2013 players will rejuvenate some owners!
9/21/2013 4:42 PM

I just sent another reminder, attached to the original ticket.  It's been over a month - let's see if this speeds things up at all...

9/28/2013 1:42 AM
This has been a good read. I have another point of view that I would like to share if you don't mind. 

I found WIS a little over a year ago in an ad on BBR. I had never played an online-based sim sports game, having only played simulations on EA Sports video games. I first tried experimenting with dream teams and pitting them against the active teams with the best winning percentages in practice games, not knowing that some of those teams were theme league teams with limitations. I then tried a spring training and then an OL and made the playoffs. But I too did not understand the dominance of Joss or why Schilling bombed so badly. Not wanting to face Joss again I chose to try a few theme leagues, where I promptly got my butt handed to me. Eventually I made the playoffs again but it wasn't until I started reading the forums and getting some advice from certain HOFer's here that I started to understand how the normalization worked (and still have lots to learn).

I have only played in 2 OL's in my WIS career but what I have noticed about it both times is they are not very friendly places to be a newbie. Not just getting beat but even posting in the league's owner forum. I tried to banter around but when you're comments get completely ignored by everyone, it doesn't make you feel much at home. Or comfortable asking for advice. Mostly, the banter (when there was some) was about the Joss haters hating on the owners who drafted Joss. Although this is good advice when you are a newbie, it is also the first thing you learn (albeit not understand) in WIS, that Joss is godlike in this game.

Personally, after learning how the normalization works AND accepting it for what it is, I think the SIM is alot of fun. It helps when you play with some of the same owners to build relationships that will make a newer owner feel comfortable, something that doesn't happen in OL.  And i have been fortunate enough to play in some of these leagues.

I agree with alot of what has been said here in regards to WIS management but I tend to try and focus on the things I can control and WIS management is not one of them. But one thing the patrons of WIS can control is how welcome newbies feel in a league. Sure you HOF'ers are getting yours by beating the crap out of unwitting newb's but if you want them to stay at WIS, maybe it would be a good idea to initiate conversation with the poor sap and offer up some pointers. Or when one starts crying in disbelief about Joss, don't ignore them but offer some assistance on strategies to beat him. Give them a little insight on how the game works and what some of the nuances are. We don't have to be totally dependant on WIS management to educate newbies on the intricacies of the SIM. Then at least the newbie has an idea of what he should do next. And feels a little more comfortable in asking advice. Sometimes a little encouragement is all that is needed to keep a new owner hungry and interested.

Well, that's my two cent addition.
9/28/2013 12:28 PM
The above is a good post. Worth more than 2 cents IMO.  However, I have a different take on it.  WHY must we just live with poor programming and unrealistic competition??  Rather than just "learning" that Joss is "Godlike" here, how about a "fix" so the competition is more realistic.  There is NO NEED for the inconsistencies of performance that this site and its normalization process causes. Joss should NOT dominate every matchup!!   That is just unrealistic.  Mantle, while a great player, should NOT hit 75 HR's against quality Pitching. It just ruins this site for those of us looking for realistic SIMulations.  Yes I KNOW this is a PC SIM program.  It can't be REAL, however it also doesn't need to be so "quirky" and unrealistic with the results and performances.  It just take effort on the part of the site admin/ownership. An area I don't think we're experiencing.  FOX doesn't care about this site, that appears obvious. It wouldn't surprise me to see them shut this down completely.  I don't want that!!!   I want an improved experience.  I don't think that will EVER occur unless someone else buys this back from FOX.  Someone that LOVES baseball and wants to run a realistic SIM that allows for fun and friendly competition.  Any takers???    :-)
9/28/2013 1:54 PM
I've never enjoyed playing OL's - for many of the reasons above - which is why I only play progressive leagues - it adds (a sense) of reality to the game.  I also echo pinotfan in that this is a game.  I got in a discussion/disagreement over an owner on who was the better pick early in a 1961 career league - Mays/Aaron or Joe Torre.  Personally, based on the game, a catcher of Torre's ability who plays for 15 years (in a career league he is a nearly 6m catcher with B+/A+/+ rating all 15 years) is more valuable than Mays or Aaron (who are 7M OF's) for 15 years.  yes they are great - but they're OF's - and there are always more OF's that perform nearly as well as they do.  The other owner was disgusted with my views, claiming that in RL - Torre couldn't hold the jock of Mays of Aaron...which may be true - I am too young to have seen them play - but this isn't RL - this is a game! :)  

anyways - to my point - its a game, and everyone is going to try to win best they can and everyone has different values and standards for what is right - if you want something better, stop playing open leagues and try themes or progressives - problem solved.

I'll also add that I have no problem with you liking Mays or Aaron better than Torre because it enabled me to pick Torre with the 7th pick - which I didnt think was going to be possible! :) 

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