IQ study - Page 10 - Hoops Dynasty

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I think one thing that can be taken from this though girt is it may be possible to run a team with b- to b IQ's and still succeed (which can probably be achieved with 10 min maybe less of practice and apply it to ratings). With that said, It also means to run a strategy like that you are going to have to be a good recruiter.

12/1/2012 4:13 PM

backboy13

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Posted by robotdevil on 12/1/2012 2:29:00 PM (view original):
I'm starting to get the feeling IQ doesn't mean a whole lot of anything. At least for man-to-man/motion. After 12 games 8-4 against a tough schedule. #19 RPI -- we shall see how this plays out.

Look at your game against Hope. No way that team is more talented than yours, but they are 12 upperclassmen deep with a huge IQ advantage, and that's why they won by 34.

12/1/2012 4:41 PM

poncho0091

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That team is also not less talented either. Yes Defense and Athleticism are less for Hope, but look at his LP and per ratings compared to York. A guy with 90+ LP rating can still score pretty effectively without ATH, but he'll more trouble defending. Also York had a bad game plan playing at a 0 against a team who has 3 guys with over 90 LP and 2 more over 80. You can see with his 46 pip he just pounded the ball inside every time. He takes high percentage shots.

There is one factor that is heavily IQ related and that is the turnover difference. This is also tied to the +3 press at uptempo which is magnified because of the weakness in IQ.

12/1/2012 5:49 PM

backboy13

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Posted by poncho0091 on 12/1/2012 5:49:00 PM (view original):
That team is also not less talented either. Yes Defense and Athleticism are less for Hope, but look at his LP and per ratings compared to York. A guy with 90+ LP rating can still score pretty effectively without ATH, but he'll more trouble defending. Also York had a bad game plan playing at a 0 against a team who has 3 guys with over 90 LP and 2 more over 80. You can see with his 46 pip he just pounded the ball inside every time. He takes high percentage shots.

There is one factor that is heavily IQ related and that is the turnover difference. This is also tied to the +3 press at uptempo which is magnified because of the weakness in IQ.

Gonna disagree here... overall (and LP/Per), Hope is good, but a team with both ATH and DEF that low won't be able to compete against the truly talented teams.

12/1/2012 5:56 PM

robotdevil

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I just don't know yet. Still no definitive evidence, but i'm leaning towards IQ means a helluva a lot less than what it should considering the amount of practice time that most of us put into it. Come NT time this team will have to put up or shut up and we will truly start to see whether or not IQ has much value. If I am successful enough to compete for a NT title for a few seasons at D3 then I will move up to D2 with this and then maybe D1 so we we can see the effects across all levels.

12/1/2012 8:46 PM

poncho0091

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Posted by backboy13 on 12/1/2012 5:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by poncho0091 on 12/1/2012 5:49:00 PM (view original):
That team is also not less talented either. Yes Defense and Athleticism are less for Hope, but look at his LP and per ratings compared to York. A guy with 90+ LP rating can still score pretty effectively without ATH, but he'll more trouble defending. Also York had a bad game plan playing at a 0 against a team who has 3 guys with over 90 LP and 2 more over 80. You can see with his 46 pip he just pounded the ball inside every time. He takes high percentage shots.

There is one factor that is heavily IQ related and that is the turnover difference. This is also tied to the +3 press at uptempo which is magnified because of the weakness in IQ.
Gonna disagree here... overall (and LP/Per), Hope is good, but a team with both ATH and DEF that low won't be able to compete against the truly talented teams.

I disagree. You can compete against good teams. I've seen teams do it (although not with the IQ disparity). I'm not the best coach or probably even that good of one, but I've done it before and I've beaten teams that have won the NT with those kinds of teams. The biggest problem with that kind of team is you'll have trouble when you play a team that has defense and some strong scorers or a game where your team goes cold. You can beat good teams with that kind of team, but consistently winning will be tough.

Keep in mind that this is DIII. Defenses are usually not strong without giving up something somewhere else.

12/1/2012 9:04 PM

dacj501

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I think we've found another study - how good can a team with low ath and def but great lp/per be?

12/1/2012 10:44 PM

poncho0091

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That is interesting dac, but someone better than me would have to try it out. With that said, from my experience with it, you can have success, but I doubt you'll win any championships with it. It's too inconsistent. If your guys don't score you can also lose to bad teams and running into teams that have good per and lp combined with the ath, spd and defense hurts. I do believe you can afford to give up a little on ath and def if you can get some elite per and lp guys, but it becomes a balancing act at that point.

Again, this is in reference to DIII and also a bit at DII.

12/1/2012 10:52 PM

brianxavier

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Posted by robotdevil on 12/1/2012 8:46:00 PM (view original):
I just don't know yet. Still no definitive evidence, but i'm leaning towards IQ means a helluva a lot less than what it should considering the amount of practice time that most of us put into it. Come NT time this team will have to put up or shut up and we will truly start to see whether or not IQ has much value. If I am successful enough to compete for a NT title for a few seasons at D3 then I will move up to D2 with this and then maybe D1 so we we can see the effects across all levels.

The fact that this team is beating anyone in the top 100 RPI is discouraging to me. I still really enjoy this game, but clearly there is something wrong here. Players should be running into each other and leaving other teams wide open on when on defense with IQs like this. I would hope that it would cost a team at least 20-30 points a night to have IQs like that.... I can see an argument for a C or better IQ not having as much of a penalty, but a F and D IQs should be severely penalized.

12/2/2012 10:38 PM

robotdevil

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Posted by brianxavier on 12/2/2012 10:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by robotdevil on 12/1/2012 8:46:00 PM (view original):
I just don't know yet. Still no definitive evidence, but i'm leaning towards IQ means a helluva a lot less than what it should considering the amount of practice time that most of us put into it. Come NT time this team will have to put up or shut up and we will truly start to see whether or not IQ has much value. If I am successful enough to compete for a NT title for a few seasons at D3 then I will move up to D2 with this and then maybe D1 so we we can see the effects across all levels.
The fact that this team is beating anyone in the top 100 RPI is discouraging to me. I still really enjoy this game, but clearly there is something wrong here. Players should be running into each other and leaving other teams wide open on when on defense with IQs like this. I would hope that it would cost a team at least 20-30 points a night to have IQs like that.... I can see an argument for a C or better IQ not having as much of a penalty, but a F and D IQs should be severely penalized.

I agree with this 100%. Most of us put 20-25 minutes into team practice and I would hope the the difference between an F to an A+ would be on average 20pts a game. But, that doesn't appear to be true. Right now it doesn't appear to be worth nearly that much. Hopefully no one will be discouraged by this and can still enjoy this game as much as i still do. I've just had a hunch for a while that IQ is overrated. We will see how much of a difference it makes when playing against top teams soon enough.

12/3/2012 12:31 AM

gillispie2

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i think IQ is not as important as 20 ppg, but it is still pretty important. remember, F represents the IQ a of a low end college player, these guys aren't going to be "running into each other ;)" - just like 1 speed is a low end college player, not a 50 year old man who weight 400 pounds.

when you play top teams coached by top coaches, if you are a top coach with a top team except you haven't practiced IQ, im pretty confident you will get slaughtered. when you have a talented team and are playing coaches who aren't really paying attention in the regular season, who don't really know how to coach their teams, and you have been players who have grown faster - its a hell of a lot easier to come away with the win! there are so many things the other coach is doing wrong (a bad team setup can easily be 10 ppg) to make up for your lack of IQ. but play at a high level of competition - that space is just not there. or at least, i think its not. i have a pretty long history of watching the impact of IQ on my teams and it is damn hard to win a championship even when you have B+ iqs, not to mention Fs.

also - to the guy who said Cs should maybe be OK but Ds/Fs should be horrible - there are two possibilities with IQ - either the difference from an A to a B is the same as a B to a C or D to an F - or there are increasingly bigger jumps as you go up, to go with the vast increase in minutes it takes to go up each successive prestige grade. many believe the difference from an a to a b is significantly larger than a d to an f. i dont know for sure, but i would guess that is true.

12/3/2012 2:39 AM (edited)

bistiza

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This is certainly interesting information.

I would think the difference between A and B should be greater than B and C or D and F because of the increased time it takes to go up, but that could just be a reflection of the amount of time it takes to achieve an excellent level versus an adequate level of IQ.

12/3/2012 10:44 AM

andrew5975

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hey robot...so another season in the books. how would you say your season played out compared to what you expected going in? how about predictions for next season? and how would your predictions for next season be different if all your players had A/B IQs going into the season?

12/16/2012 11:57 PM

poncho0091

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A couple things to take note from here. Through this season, he was able to beat a team with an 11 for rpi and a another at 22. At the same time he only lost to other good teams. Someone said its because he outmatched teams like hope, but in reality, that is the point. If you're going to be at a disadvantage in IQ, then you need to have the more dominant team in pure abilities. There is noone on that team past their junior year and they are that highly rated already and likely close to maxing out. I honestly feel like this team with maybe a C+ IQ would be dominant and it would likely only take 5 min of practice time to get there by the end of sophomore year.

12/17/2012 4:03 AM

hughesjr

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Posted by poncho0091 on 12/17/2012 4:03:00 AM (view original):
A couple things to take note from here. Through this season, he was able to beat a team with an 11 for rpi and a another at 22. At the same time he only lost to other good teams. Someone said its because he outmatched teams like hope, but in reality, that is the point. If you're going to be at a disadvantage in IQ, then you need to have the more dominant team in pure abilities. There is noone on that team past their junior year and they are that highly rated already and likely close to maxing out. I honestly feel like this team with maybe a C+ IQ would be dominant and it would likely only take 5 min of practice time to get there by the end of sophomore year.

That is true for the underclassmen ... the only problem is that all the JR and SR are likely to be maxed out. At that point they no longer grow and every minute spent on attributes in a non growing area is not making your team better.

This obviously will work, the question is whether it is a better approach than also practicing IQ minutes.

Only more time will tell, but my personal feelings are that one will hit a plateau at some point and the team will stop getting better. Of course, recruiting the right kind of players (everyone with high-high in the core attributes where you want to play them) and if you can also recruit guys that also played the Offense and Defense your team plays in High School) can mitigate the plateau.

12/17/2012 6:56 AM

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