All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > 27 SPD, 22 BH, 1 PER Center Goes 2-3 From Deep
10/7/2012 2:39 PM
This guy went 2-3 from deep in this game.  I won, handily, but how does this happen...?  This guy is 4 of 17 from three on the season, which is pretty bad, but considering his ratings, I'd say that's far beyond what anyone would be expecting of him. 

This is probably pretty widespread and maybe it's the norm in HD, but it's just kind of frustrating to me, when this game does so many things right, that a guy like Cotton going 2 of 3 from deep can make a victory and even an 18-game win streak that convoluted. 

Also, this guy went 1-1 from deep.

10/7/2012 5:12 PM
I honestly think speed and bh should be nearly irrelevant to per, and don't understand why it plays a big factor. Look at the best 3 point shooters of all-time, most of them are slow and who actually creates a 3 point shot off the dribble? Most 3 point shots occur with 0 dribbles unless they are coming off a screen. But yea the 1 per should mean he never takes a 3 let alone 3 in a game and 17 on the season. 
10/7/2012 6:33 PM
BH and Spd should be irrelevant to per?

Yes, there are great spot-up 3-pt shooters.  There are guys who are amazing coming off picks.  But there are guys who also get amazing looks because of the way they handle the ball.

Imagine if Derrick Rose was a good shooter.  He happens to not be, but what if he was?  Are you telling me that his ability to create his own shot wouldn't allow him to get more open looks?

I can't imagine that's a widely-held opinion.  
10/7/2012 6:54 PM
Sample size. All I got. 
10/8/2012 3:03 AM
I see your point isack, but you then create a dilemma for the programmer. If I can have a guy with 99 per, but low BH/spd (maybe less than 40) a great 3 pt shooter, lets say 45% as he should be, then what do I do to about the perimeter guy who does have BH/spd? Am I going to make him able to shoot 60 % from 3 pt range, because he can create his own shot? Obviously that would be ridiculously unrealistic, but then I can't punish the guy who has low BH/spd either.

Another point to make is the guy with low BH/spd will just have more turnovers. turnovers are still a part of creating your own shot. If you don't have the skills, you will get it stolen.
10/8/2012 9:11 AM
I'm fine with speed and bh having some say in ability to shoot 3s, but I think it has too much.  I'm with poncho on this one.  Craig Hodges, Tim Legler, Steve Kerr, etc.  The top 20 all time 3 pt shooters have many more slow guys that can't dribble in it than fast ones that can.

Has anyone done any research?  Would a 80 spd, 80 bh, 50 per shoot better (as I suspect) than a 50/50/80 guy?
10/8/2012 9:43 AM
I have a very small sample, because I'm only in my third season, but I do have a couple players whose data might be worthwhile. Obviously, these ratings are as of now. Guard C is younger and therefore probably has more discrepancy between what he is now and what he was before. 

Guard A: 58 SPD, 46 BH, 97 PER. 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 50% through three games as a senior
Guard B: 47 SPD, 54 BH, 83 PER. 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 41.6% through three games as a senior
Guard C: 81 SPD, 65 BH, 72 PER. 36.3% as a sophomore, 46.2% through three games as a junior. 

If I remember, I'll update at the end of the year. 
10/8/2012 11:18 AM
Posted by poncho0091 on 10/8/2012 3:03:00 AM (view original):
I see your point isack, but you then create a dilemma for the programmer. If I can have a guy with 99 per, but low BH/spd (maybe less than 40) a great 3 pt shooter, lets say 45% as he should be, then what do I do to about the perimeter guy who does have BH/spd? Am I going to make him able to shoot 60 % from 3 pt range, because he can create his own shot? Obviously that would be ridiculously unrealistic, but then I can't punish the guy who has low BH/spd either.

Another point to make is the guy with low BH/spd will just have more turnovers. turnovers are still a part of creating your own shot. If you don't have the skills, you will get it stolen.
I think you make the high per, low bh/spd guy more dependent on his teammates' passing.  If he's surrounded by a bad passing team, he should have limited success.  Great passing, and great success.

The high per/bh/spd guy should be less affected by his teammates as he can create his own shot.
10/8/2012 11:24 AM
Posted by ll316 on 10/8/2012 9:11:00 AM (view original):
I'm fine with speed and bh having some say in ability to shoot 3s, but I think it has too much.  I'm with poncho on this one.  Craig Hodges, Tim Legler, Steve Kerr, etc.  The top 20 all time 3 pt shooters have many more slow guys that can't dribble in it than fast ones that can.

Has anyone done any research?  Would a 80 spd, 80 bh, 50 per shoot better (as I suspect) than a 50/50/80 guy?
That's because they were all great shooters.  I can't really think of any guys who could shoot like them who could handle like an elite PG.

I think there's a causation/correlation problem.

Yes, the best shooters of all time happened to be catch-and-shoot guys.  But that's because they were great shooters.  If you took Reggie Miller's shooting ability, and made him as fast as John Wall with the ball handling skills of Steve Nash, don't you think he would have been even better, as tough as that is to fathom?

The problem is that the 99 per, 90 bh/spd guy doesn't really exist in real life.  It does, however, exist in this game.  I don't necessarily this that guys should be better at shooting 3s, but he should be able to shoot more at the same or better efficiency, and his success should be less dependant on other players.
10/8/2012 11:40 AM
I think this happens.  Load up the distro on a high PER low BH/spd guy and watch his FG% drop and his TO's skyrocket.  Guys like this:

http://www.wisjournal.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=2180178

Can handle the volume with minimal drop off in efficiency.  He'll be more impressive numbers-wise as I benched him to get his backup some WE improving PT during the non-con, cause this guy is as good as gone when the NBA draft rolls around. 
10/8/2012 1:51 PM
Wow reinsel that guy looks similar to how the top DI players used to look when HD first began (when no one except Sims had the expereince to coach there yet). I remember back then there were some guys who posted 1100 plus ratings, and your average senior seemed to be around where your guy is here.

Still, your guy is off the charts and yes, I'd expect him to go in the draft. Obviously you're a much better coach than me, because I only envy every having a player that good on a team I coach.
10/8/2012 7:57 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 10/8/2012 9:43:00 AM (view original):
I have a very small sample, because I'm only in my third season, but I do have a couple players whose data might be worthwhile. Obviously, these ratings are as of now. Guard C is younger and therefore probably has more discrepancy between what he is now and what he was before. 

Guard A: 58 SPD, 46 BH, 97 PER. 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 50% through three games as a senior
Guard B: 47 SPD, 54 BH, 83 PER. 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 41.6% through three games as a senior
Guard C: 81 SPD, 65 BH, 72 PER. 36.3% as a sophomore, 46.2% through three games as a junior. 

If I remember, I'll update at the end of the year. 
All we need to make that sample complete is a guy high in all 3 categories. C is close, but I wonder how it would look if his bh and per were in the 80's compared to where it is now.
10/8/2012 8:52 PM
Posted by poncho0091 on 10/8/2012 7:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarvolon on 10/8/2012 9:43:00 AM (view original):
I have a very small sample, because I'm only in my third season, but I do have a couple players whose data might be worthwhile. Obviously, these ratings are as of now. Guard C is younger and therefore probably has more discrepancy between what he is now and what he was before. 

Guard A: 58 SPD, 46 BH, 97 PER. 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 50% through three games as a senior
Guard B: 47 SPD, 54 BH, 83 PER. 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 41.6% through three games as a senior
Guard C: 81 SPD, 65 BH, 72 PER. 36.3% as a sophomore, 46.2% through three games as a junior. 

If I remember, I'll update at the end of the year. 
All we need to make that sample complete is a guy high in all 3 categories. C is close, but I wonder how it would look if his bh and per were in the 80's compared to where it is now.
He's still black in PER and BH, so he may be up there by the end of the season. Another variable is that C is running the point and B is playing SG and backing up the point. The last two years, A and B have been purely SG. Also, I've had A and B at +2 since I took this job, and C is at 0 right now. But even with those variables, it still should provide a solid data point if I remember about this thread in another 3-4 weeks. 
10/8/2012 10:33 PM
Posted by isack24 on 10/7/2012 6:33:00 PM (view original):
BH and Spd should be irrelevant to per?

Yes, there are great spot-up 3-pt shooters.  There are guys who are amazing coming off picks.  But there are guys who also get amazing looks because of the way they handle the ball.

Imagine if Derrick Rose was a good shooter.  He happens to not be, but what if he was?  Are you telling me that his ability to create his own shot wouldn't allow him to get more open looks?

I can't imagine that's a widely-held opinion.  
Give me a few examples of great 3 point shooters who create a large % of the 3s off the dribble?
10/8/2012 10:40 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 10/8/2012 10:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 10/7/2012 6:33:00 PM (view original):
BH and Spd should be irrelevant to per?

Yes, there are great spot-up 3-pt shooters.  There are guys who are amazing coming off picks.  But there are guys who also get amazing looks because of the way they handle the ball.

Imagine if Derrick Rose was a good shooter.  He happens to not be, but what if he was?  Are you telling me that his ability to create his own shot wouldn't allow him to get more open looks?

I can't imagine that's a widely-held opinion.  
Give me a few examples of great 3 point shooters who create a large % of the 3s off the dribble?
Steve Nash is the obvious one. From the college ranks, Jimmer Fredette is a great example.
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All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > 27 SPD, 22 BH, 1 PER Center Goes 2-3 From Deep

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