3 players poached by the same team on last cycle Topic

udm_mike
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Posted by gillispie2 on 10/9/2012 12:59:00 PM (view original):
that is a retarded strategy and i dont know what you could possibly be smoking, dahs...

spasticity - why do you consider a coach with n+1 recruits to be weak? what about n+3, n+5, n+10? considering how cheap it is to get considered, i dont see the logic.
I'm much more likely to get into a battle with a team that has n+1 than otherwise.  Maybe it's shortsighted on my part, but it's how I've always looked at it.
10/9/2012 1:05 PM
todd43615
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I agree with udm_mike for me I wouldn't use the word weak for a team that has "n+1" recruits but I think it does give the impression in some cases that the team might be willing to lose a recruit if they have an extra one already considering them instead of going through a battle.  If I see a team that needs 1 center but has 3 considering them I might be more likely to try and battle for one of those centers thinking that the team might just let that recruit go because they have 2 others, especially if the center I'm going after isn't the highest ranked of the 3.

10/9/2012 2:10 PM
tarvolon
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If somebody has n+1 considering them, I assume that they expect to get beaten out for one of them. I'm happy to oblige. The resources are also spread out a little bit more, although generally not that much. 
10/9/2012 2:14 PM
isack24
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Exactly.  If you like a couple of that team's guys, you know that he has to give one up.  Might as well be the guy who he has to battle for, so I think it gives the appearance of an easy battle.
10/9/2012 2:14 PM
bistiza
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Hold up here guys. I don't know that the "n+1" situation always means an easy battle.

Several times I've seen people mention how they are considered by guys they have no interest in, which could result in the appearance of n+1 when in fact that's not really the case at all.

Additionally, the person you decide to battle for a recruit you think is the weakest of the bunch may decide differently and put up a bigger fight than you expect.

Personally, assuming it doesn't happen by accident when I didn't intend it, if I have an n+1 scenario and someone decides to fight me, I'm only giving up easily if I was already planning on dropping that particular recruit anyway. Otherwise, be prepared for an onslaught.

So I caution anyone who thinks someone else with an "n+1" means an easy battle.
10/9/2012 2:21 PM
spasticity
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Posted by gillispie2 on 10/9/2012 12:59:00 PM (view original):
that is a retarded strategy and i dont know what you could possibly be smoking, dahs...

spasticity - why do you consider a coach with n+1 recruits to be weak? what about n+3, n+5, n+10? considering how cheap it is to get considered, i dont see the logic.
Basically what others said, but it obviously applies more to D2/D3 than D1 because of the budgets.  I'm also thinking about it as opposed to "n-2" recruits.  If a team has 4 open spots and goes hard after 1 or 2 players, I think that signals some strength relative to how hard they might be willing to fight.  That's how I recruit generally, so I read that into other people too.  Then compare that to the 4-spot team having 5+ guys considering them.  I'm going to think he's either a) an idiot, b) spread too thin, or c) both. 

I mean it's all a poker game of signals.  I certainly don't mean that I'll always take a player from a team with n+1 recruits, but it's a piece of information that I sometimes act on.  Similar to how any number of things in poker might signal weakness, but certainly don't guarantee anything.
10/9/2012 2:28 PM
todd43615
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Bistiza - I don't think anyone on the thread is making the argument that "n+1 always means an easy battle".  I think we are more talking about how likely we are to go after a recruit based on perception. 

Spasticity - I've had times when I've had all my recruits considering me and lots of $ left over and decided to battle late for a better recruit resulting in me having an extra recruit considering me.  Don't think I was an idiot or spread too thin.
10/9/2012 2:45 PM
isack24
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Posted by bistiza on 10/9/2012 2:21:00 PM (view original):
Hold up here guys. I don't know that the "n+1" situation always means an easy battle.

Several times I've seen people mention how they are considered by guys they have no interest in, which could result in the appearance of n+1 when in fact that's not really the case at all.

Additionally, the person you decide to battle for a recruit you think is the weakest of the bunch may decide differently and put up a bigger fight than you expect.

Personally, assuming it doesn't happen by accident when I didn't intend it, if I have an n+1 scenario and someone decides to fight me, I'm only giving up easily if I was already planning on dropping that particular recruit anyway. Otherwise, be prepared for an onslaught.

So I caution anyone who thinks someone else with an "n+1" means an easy battle.
Great, but if I'm going to battle, I'm much more likely to go after an n+1 than an n-2, as spasticity said.

I know going in that it might be a battle, but I also know that you have no choice but to drop one recruit.  Then, all of a sudden, you are n+1 AND in a battle, and that signals to other coaches that you are going to leave someone else unprotected.  Then it starts another battle.  If people are paying attention, and your recruits are good enough, you end up in a situation where you are having to fight for all your recruits.
10/9/2012 2:47 PM
udm_mike
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Posted by todd43615 on 10/9/2012 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Bistiza - I don't think anyone on the thread is making the argument that "n+1 always means an easy battle".  I think we are more talking about how likely we are to go after a recruit based on perception. 

Spasticity - I've had times when I've had all my recruits considering me and lots of $ left over and decided to battle late for a better recruit resulting in me having an extra recruit considering me.  Don't think I was an idiot or spread too thin.
I've done that too, but I'm always nervous about being perceived as being spread too thin when doing so. 
10/9/2012 2:50 PM
bistiza
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If I see someone as n+1 AND in a battle, I figure someone decided to fight him for one of the recruits he wants to keep rather than the guy he wants to drop. I would NOT assume he won't have resources to battle me, unless I happen to want the guy he wants to drop anyway.

People can fight and win more than one battle, depending upon other circumstances. I don't immediately attack someone who is involved in another battle under the assumption they'll have less resources so it's open season - they may have plenty enough to take us both on, depending upon any number of other factors such as how hard the other guy fights to how much they had to begin with and so on.
10/9/2012 2:58 PM
ryrun
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But, like what isack24 said, it can have a domino effect.  If I see a guy in n+1 and in two battles with two others considering him vs another team who is n-2 and in no battles, common sense says that the n+1 guy is going to have a much harder time fending you off.  Odds are he's going to have to focus on one or two of the battles in order to win them.

It all depends on if other coaches are paying attention.  It seems like some people have the strategy of going n+5 or more to make people guess at who they are really after.  It may be a viable strategy... I've never tried it, but I see enough teams do it that it must have some value, but to a lot of coaches going n+ signals that you might be spreading yourself too thin and are vulnerable to have a recruit taken from you.

You  have to look at all of the variables, too (distance, prestige, estimated budget, etc), but in a vacuum, you're better off piling on to the guy that's already possibly spread thin and in some existing battles that have dented his budget.

10/9/2012 3:05 PM
spasticity
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Posted by todd43615 on 10/9/2012 2:45:00 PM (view original):
Bistiza - I don't think anyone on the thread is making the argument that "n+1 always means an easy battle".  I think we are more talking about how likely we are to go after a recruit based on perception. 

Spasticity - I've had times when I've had all my recruits considering me and lots of $ left over and decided to battle late for a better recruit resulting in me having an extra recruit considering me.  Don't think I was an idiot or spread too thin.
Sure, I don't mean to say people with n+1 are always dumb or spread too thin (though I think that's usually true), but it's still a sign of weakness that I would consider with other things.  For me personally it's more relevant if you have n+1 somewhat early on, since I don't make a habit of going after people right before signings.

And isack makes a good point that other people see the signal too and it can quickly snowball on you in a bad way.

10/9/2012 3:08 PM
chapelhillne
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Many times if I have more than N+0, especially at D1, I will offer a redshirt to the guy I don't want in order for him to not consider me anymore. In this case, I felt like I had enough cash to defend a recruit, or that I could give up on one. At D3 you are pretty helpless if someone pulls a stunt like this, even if you were N-1.
10/9/2012 3:45 PM
isack24
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Posted by chapelhillne on 10/9/2012 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Many times if I have more than N+0, especially at D1, I will offer a redshirt to the guy I don't want in order for him to not consider me anymore. In this case, I felt like I had enough cash to defend a recruit, or that I could give up on one. At D3 you are pretty helpless if someone pulls a stunt like this, even if you were N-1.
Completely agree.  The question is whether someone is more likely to try it against you if you are n-1.  Then again, if it's a personal vendetta, you have an entirely separate issue.
10/9/2012 3:50 PM
professor17
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Reasons a team might be N+1 (mostly from a D-1 perspective): 

Look to see if any internationals are considering the N+1 teams. Sometimes teams will have an international considering them, merely from doing exploratory scouting trips to find out potentials. If they don't like what they see, and can't shake the international with a redshirt, that team could easily have N+1, even though they have no intention of pursuing all those players.

The coach may be prepared to cut a player right at the signing deadline, and does intend to sign all the players.

Lower and mid-range prestige schools will often shotgun recruit the first cycle, not knowing for sure which decent recruits they'll end up on, but wanting to be sure they land on someone that first cycle. When I've been in that situation, I'd sometimes target twice as many recruits as I had openings, and would usually end up with less than my number of openings considering me, but sometimes you get lucky and have an excess.

10/9/2012 4:24 PM (edited)
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