11/26/2012 1:29 PM
I was just kinda playing around today and came up with some "formulas" for effectiveness.   Any comments are welcome.   I purposely left out IQ.   This is for a triangle-man team.


REB=  40% ATH, 60%REB
PERIMETER DEFENSE=   30% ATH, 20% SPD, 50% DEF
Post Defense= 30% ATH, 50% DEF, 20% BLK
3 point shooting= 10% ATH, 20% SPD, 50% PER, 20% BH
Perimeter scorers (set at -2)=  30% ATH, 20% SPD, 30%LP, 10%BH, 10% PER
PG's= 10% ATH, 20% SPD, 40% BH, 30% PASS


All the percents add up to a 100, so I figure any composite score over 70 means the player will be effective at the DII level.
11/26/2012 1:50 PM
So slashing guards need low post skills? That doesn't really make much sense, but it wouldn't be the first time the game didn't match up to real life. But I'd heard when I signed up over the summer that LP is completely useless for folks playing PG or SG. Obviously one of those bits of information is false. 

Also, I have anecdotal evidence that passing is more important than ball-handling in a triangle PG. 
11/26/2012 1:58 PM
Offensive Types ATH SPD LP PE BH IQ Total
LP 0.30 0.05 0.45 0.05 0.05 0.10 1.00
Balanced 0.20 0.10 0.20 0.20 0.20 0.10 1.00
PE 0.12 0.10 0.05 0.43 0.20 0.10 1.00
SlasherPE 0.30 0.08 0.05 0.17 0.30 0.10 1.00
SlasherLP 0.30 0.06 0.18 0.06 0.30 0.10 1.00
SlasherATH 0.38 0.08 0.03 0.03 0.38 0.10 1.00
11/26/2012 2:04 PM
Rebounding: REB 63%, ATH 32%, SPD 5%

Def:  DEF 50%, ATH 20%, SPD 5%, BLK 10%, DEF_IQ 15%

Ball Handing:  ATH 10%, SPD 10%, BH 40%, PASS 40%


11/26/2012 2:45 PM (edited)
overall, i think you did a pretty good job with those. the exercise of trying to come up with these formulas is incredibly useful, and im glad to see you are breaking it down beyond just a position, to a role - that is the right way to do it, for those seeking to move to more advanced levels of play. i cant tell you how many hours i spent doing this, but i did it implicitly all the time while evaluating players (id think about the formula, but thinking about the formula was not the main objective), and its easily hundreds of hours, just in my first two years. 

anyway, some comments:
REB - i generally consider rebounding and ath to be at least 2:1 and maybe as much as 3:1 in rebounding ability, so id go closer to 30/70%, or at least 33/66%. long ago i placed it more like 2.5:1, now i probably am more in the 2:1 camp.

PER DEFENSE - i think this is close, although i would guess that if ath is more important than spd in m2m, its slightly so, not 1.5x. but i do probably agree that ath>spd for defense, for guards in m2m, although again maybe more like 1-1.25x than 1.5x. i do peg def as roughly twice as important as ath/spd in m2m so we are about on the same page there.

POST DEFENSE - speed may be a small component. the def:ath ratio is probably a little more than 1.6x, maybe closer to 2x, but using round numbers, i think thats good.

3 POINT SHOOTING - this is one of the toughest ones to discuss, because its very situational. the previous ratings do vary slightly by opponent (their set and players), as well as the position and situation your players are in on your own team. but by and large, those fluctuations are small. for 3 point shooting, its not. for example, a player who sort of fits your formula - high per, low bh/spd - they will be MUCH more successful against lower quality opponents, really, lower quality defenders. if you are playing terrible defense, your formula is not far off - although you still overvalue per in relation to spd and bh. just slightly, and spd > bh for high power 3 point scorers, while for lower powered ones, its closer to even. against top opponents, id probably do more like ath 10%, spd 30%, bh 25%, per 35%. not exactly right, but im rounding to 5%, its pretty close.

PER SCORERS (-2) - this is kind of a confusing definition, I thought you meant guards/sfs who have some per but not enough to shoot 3s, but your ratings make me wonder if you mean something else. also, thats kind of a huge range, a player with a lot of lp has more value on ath, a player with less lp still significantly values spd over ath. for this d2 player: 55 ath, 80 spd, 50 per, 40 lp, 65 bh - i would rate the marginal point of those ratings at approx: 15% ath, 20% spd, 20% lp, 25% per, 15% bh (thats only 95%, i really would have to go down to single %s to make that accurate). for this d2  player: 75 ath, 60 spd, 40 per, 50 lp, 65 bh - would rate the marginal point of those ratings at approx: 20% ath, 20% spd, 20% per, 25% lp, 15% bh. as you shift to a really poor per player with lp, ath definitely will pass spd, but at the 1-2, its unusual for that to be the case. the advantage of ath at the extreme is far less than the advantage of spd at the extreme, so for most players at the 1-2 playing -1 or -2, spd>ath will hold. its usually true at the 1-2 that per>lp but when ath is high enough and spd/bh get low enough, i think its possible for lp>per to be true, but generally per>lp holds. bh remains fairly important. at the 3, i consider a significant shift to take place, where ath>spd is true a slight majority of the cases, and where ath's advantage over speed in the extreme (high lp, low per/bh) is roughly equal to speed's advantage over ath in the extreme (high per/bh, low lp). bh also takes a significant but not massive drop when you go to the 3.

PGs - this one is the one i disagree with the most. for a triangle pg, spd and pass are the two most important ratings, and then bh. now, heres the tricky part, are you just talking the "PG ability on offense", which i often call "ability to run the offense", or just a PG as a whole? if you are just talking ability to run the offense, i would go with something like, 1.3x for pass to bh, and 1.1-1.2x for spd. hard to put that into 5%s but id roughly go with, 10% ATH, 30% SPD, 25% BH, 35% PASS
11/26/2012 2:05 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 11/26/2012 1:50:00 PM (view original):
So slashing guards need low post skills? That doesn't really make much sense, but it wouldn't be the first time the game didn't match up to real life. But I'd heard when I signed up over the summer that LP is completely useless for folks playing PG or SG. Obviously one of those bits of information is false. 

Also, I have anecdotal evidence that passing is more important than ball-handling in a triangle PG. 
LP absolutely, positively matters for guards now. LP has been explained as "the ability to score close to the basket" with regard to how it is viewed by the engine.

The confusion regarding LP stems from the fact that it was once a meaningless stat under an earlier (2+ years ago) version of the engine and the player guides haven't been updated since at least 2009 when I joined and thus continue to display the now-erroneous information.
11/26/2012 2:05 PM
Position A SPD REB DE BLK LP PE BH P WE ST DU FT Off_IQ Def_IQ TOT-R TOT
PG 0.10 0.14 0.00 0.15 0.00 0.01 0.11 0.17 0.25 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
SG 0.10 0.14 0.00 0.15 0.00 0.03 0.23 0.12 0.16 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
SF 0.16 0.09 0.07 0.15 0.05 0.10 0.11 0.10 0.10 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
PF 0.19 0.07 0.12 0.15 0.08 0.12 0.08 0.05 0.07 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
C 0.21 0.03 0.18 0.15 0.12 0.18 0.01 0.01 0.04 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25

TOT-R is Total while recruiting ... Total includes Free Throws, OFF_IQ and DEF_IQ

11/26/2012 2:06 PM
Those 3 posts are the numbers I use ...
11/26/2012 2:28 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 11/26/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Rebounding: REB 63%, ATH 32%, SPD 5%

Def:  DEF 50%, ATH 20%, SPD 5%, BLK 10%, DEF_IQ 15%

Ball Handing:  ATH 10%, SPD 10%, BH 40%, PASS 40%


About rebounding, I asked a while ago in a developed chat (last summer maybe?)  specifically what goes into the REBOUNDING Equation and admin said ATH, REB and IQ.   
11/26/2012 2:36 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 11/26/2012 1:50:00 PM (view original):
So slashing guards need low post skills? That doesn't really make much sense, but it wouldn't be the first time the game didn't match up to real life. But I'd heard when I signed up over the summer that LP is completely useless for folks playing PG or SG. Obviously one of those bits of information is false. 

Also, I have anecdotal evidence that passing is more important than ball-handling in a triangle PG. 
lot of posts since i started typing mine, got a phone call, and finished.

slashing guards definitely benefit from LP skills, there is no doubt about that. it was true for many years, that LP was 100% meaningless for guards (well, at least 98% - it didn't impact shooting, but there is some speculation it may have still affected shot selection). in the new engine, i believe it was, seble changed lp to matter. or maybe it was a little sooner, im not sure, but its mattered for at least a couple years. also, LP should be thought of as "scoring near the basket" or "scoring in the paint", not "low post ability".

11/26/2012 2:38 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 11/26/2012 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 11/26/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Rebounding: REB 63%, ATH 32%, SPD 5%

Def:  DEF 50%, ATH 20%, SPD 5%, BLK 10%, DEF_IQ 15%

Ball Handing:  ATH 10%, SPD 10%, BH 40%, PASS 40%


About rebounding, I asked a while ago in a developed chat (last summer maybe?)  specifically what goes into the REBOUNDING Equation and admin said ATH, REB and IQ.   
Which IQ, DEF, OFF, or Both?
11/26/2012 2:40 PM
"PGs - this one is the one i disagree with the most. for a triangle pg, spd and pass are the two most important ratings, and then bh. now, heres the tricky part, are you just talking the "PG ability on offense", which i often call "ability to run the offense", or just a PG as a whole? if you are just talking ability to run the offense, i would go with something like, 1.3x for pass to bh, and 1.1-1.2x for spd. hard to put that into 5%s but id roughly go with, 10% ATH, 30% SPD, 25% BH, 35% PASS"

All I really want out of my PG is to not turn the ball over. I think that is why I value BH (probably too much).

 Once that role is done, in my mind  he becomes either a primary scorer, a secondary scorer or a non scorer.  His passer rating importance is inversely proportionally  to his distrubution setting.    I think of PASS as a multiplier (similar to ATH), the higher the PASS rating the more smoothly the offense will run.  I also think that pass is more important to the people who are not shooting.   I can't imagine the SHOOTERS passer rating is factored into the "does the ball go in"  decision at all.

11/26/2012 2:41 PM
uhg... behind again... agree that speed is NOT part of rebounding...
11/26/2012 2:51 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 11/26/2012 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Position A SPD REB DE BLK LP PE BH P WE ST DU FT Off_IQ Def_IQ TOT-R TOT
PG 0.10 0.14 0.00 0.15 0.00 0.01 0.11 0.17 0.25 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
SG 0.10 0.14 0.00 0.15 0.00 0.03 0.23 0.12 0.16 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
SF 0.16 0.09 0.07 0.15 0.05 0.10 0.11 0.10 0.10 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
PF 0.19 0.07 0.12 0.15 0.08 0.12 0.08 0.05 0.07 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25
C 0.21 0.03 0.18 0.15 0.12 0.18 0.01 0.01 0.04 0.03 0.03 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.10 1.00 1.25

TOT-R is Total while recruiting ... Total includes Free Throws, OFF_IQ and DEF_IQ

just a couple random comments, to give you something to think about. you significantly undervalue we and sta for all players. reb should not be 0 for sg/pg. the value of reb for a pf and C is not that drastically different. the value of per/bh/pass are not that drastically different for a 4/5 either, but if you are calling a PF a non traditional big, and often signing PFs based on your C ratings, that makes more sense. your value of lp relative to per for guards is way too low. your ath/spd relative to def, bh, pass for a pg are pretty out of whack, and for your sg, too. 
11/26/2012 2:53 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 11/26/2012 2:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 11/26/2012 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 11/26/2012 2:04:00 PM (view original):
Rebounding: REB 63%, ATH 32%, SPD 5%

Def:  DEF 50%, ATH 20%, SPD 5%, BLK 10%, DEF_IQ 15%

Ball Handing:  ATH 10%, SPD 10%, BH 40%, PASS 40%


About rebounding, I asked a while ago in a developed chat (last summer maybe?)  specifically what goes into the REBOUNDING Equation and admin said ATH, REB and IQ.   
Which IQ, DEF, OFF, or Both?
You know, I didn't ask.   I assumed OFF IQ in the OFF REB equation and vice versa.
of 4

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.