1/29/2013 7:48 AM
I have very little expierence with uptempo (UT). I if you were facing a team that likes to run slow down and has an overall stamina rating 3-4 below yours would it be wise to run UT? What would you expect to occur?
1/29/2013 11:14 AM
the factors you list are not what causes me to play uptempo or not. primarily, i run uptempo into press teams, where i want to increase the foul count. also, maybe against bad teams who i should crush, and want to reduce rng. generally, you dont want to run uptempo into a superior team, or even a team with a superior defense to your offense. you also dont want to run uptempo unless you have the depth and quality backups. remember that uptempo doesnt really fatigue your opponent, only indirectly through fouls and stuff, but not directly - while it does fatigue you. plus, you pay in the half court, on offense, from trying to rush things. so really, in my mind, you need clear and compelling reasons to play uptempo, for it to be worth it - and i think most coaches who run uptempo most of the season, are really hurting themselves.
1/29/2013 12:04 PM
Interesting thoughts thanks Billy
1/29/2013 3:32 PM
huh, I run slowdown against press teams to decrease my own turnover count. Uptempo to increase their foul count seems like it would also be an interesting strategy. I'm guessing which is a better idea depends on how well your team can control the ball. 
1/29/2013 5:15 PM
I asked WIS Customer support if there was any penalty for running Uptempo or Slowdown, other then increasing or decreasing the number of possessions and the effects on stamina (more possessions means getting tired faster and results closer to the average due to larger sample size, less means getting tired slower and potential results farther from the average due to lower sample size).

I was told that there is no penalties and the only impact is time per possession. No impact on shot selection (so no decrease in shooting percentage, increase in turnovers, etc.) ... no added inefficiencies.

I have seen posts in the forums of "other than normal" inefficiencies ... I think that is a forum myth and not a fact. At least based on my info.
1/29/2013 6:58 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 1/29/2013 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I asked WIS Customer support if there was any penalty for running Uptempo or Slowdown, other then increasing or decreasing the number of possessions and the effects on stamina (more possessions means getting tired faster and results closer to the average due to larger sample size, less means getting tired slower and potential results farther from the average due to lower sample size).

I was told that there is no penalties and the only impact is time per possession. No impact on shot selection (so no decrease in shooting percentage, increase in turnovers, etc.) ... no added inefficiencies.

I have seen posts in the forums of "other than normal" inefficiencies ... I think that is a forum myth and not a fact. At least based on my info.
this stance has been taken by CS for a long time, and was disproven some number of years ago. maybe its semantics, over direct and indirect impacts, but i think its pretty clear that at least the indirect impact of uptempo goes far beyond simple possession count.
1/29/2013 7:14 PM
Into fouls Billy?
1/29/2013 7:55 PM
I happen to like uptempo more than most other coaches do... where and how I run it are probably beyond the scope of the forum (I also don't have billyg's eloquence to even try it). Yes, I'm more likely not to be running it against top teams, but I played uptempo in 2 of my 3 national title game wins so it's not like it can't be effective at that level of competition.

This isn't to say anything against slow down either, which is clearly used a lot by a lot of great coaches, just that my teams aren't built to be running slow down all that often.
1/29/2013 8:10 PM
ok  jsajsa....what does UT do against a slow down? I think that was maybe my question tho i am sure not clear....billy gave me an idea but like to hear more
1/29/2013 8:38 PM
Posted by hughesjr on 1/29/2013 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I asked WIS Customer support if there was any penalty for running Uptempo or Slowdown, other then increasing or decreasing the number of possessions and the effects on stamina (more possessions means getting tired faster and results closer to the average due to larger sample size, less means getting tired slower and potential results farther from the average due to lower sample size).

I was told that there is no penalties and the only impact is time per possession. No impact on shot selection (so no decrease in shooting percentage, increase in turnovers, etc.) ... no added inefficiencies.

I have seen posts in the forums of "other than normal" inefficiencies ... I think that is a forum myth and not a fact. At least based on my info.
i think the best way to see the issue with this way of thinking is to think about what you said deeper... no increase in turnovers. can you precisely clarify what you mean by that?
1/30/2013 2:40 AM
Posted by gillispie on 1/29/2013 8:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by hughesjr on 1/29/2013 5:15:00 PM (view original):
I asked WIS Customer support if there was any penalty for running Uptempo or Slowdown, other then increasing or decreasing the number of possessions and the effects on stamina (more possessions means getting tired faster and results closer to the average due to larger sample size, less means getting tired slower and potential results farther from the average due to lower sample size).

I was told that there is no penalties and the only impact is time per possession. No impact on shot selection (so no decrease in shooting percentage, increase in turnovers, etc.) ... no added inefficiencies.

I have seen posts in the forums of "other than normal" inefficiencies ... I think that is a forum myth and not a fact. At least based on my info.
i think the best way to see the issue with this way of thinking is to think about what you said deeper... no increase in turnovers. can you precisely clarify what you mean by that?
Well ... according to the theory, you are changing only the number of possessions.

You would have a higher number of possessions if you run uptempo, therefore you would have more physical shots and more turnovers since there are more plays.

There would also be either more plays by your bench (or more plays at a higher fatigue level by your players) due to the impact of running more plays at uptempo (more plays in the same number of minutes). Depending on team depth, this could cause a slightly higher percentage of turnovers or missed shots because of more plays by the bench or players playing more fatigued. You might also have more fouls because of more plays and more fouls because of the impact of mare fatigue.

But my point is that there does not seem to be any added impact ... any changes other what you would expect with a slightly more fatigued team with uptempo.

Now, I have not studied this in detail, just reporting what CS said.

It does not seem that they are purposely adding things like a higher percentage of turnovers if you run slowdown because you have to hold the ball longer. Nor is there a penalty for shot selection because you are holding the ball longer and then hurrying at the end. At least not by game design.

On uptempo, there is no lowering of shot percentage based on shot selection, etc.

So you do not get better looks in Normal as compared to uptempo or slowdown.
1/30/2013 3:54 PM
I've been very interested in this question this season, as my Maryville team started out getting absolutely crushed against the press. Lost the first three games, including one as a 31-point favorite and two in which I thought my team had a significant advantage. So I switched from normal tempo to slowdown, and my impression was that my offense was running better. But impressions are easily biased, so I'll look up some numbers. I'm not digging through play-by-plays to find out how many possessions were in each game, so I've compared turnovers to the total number of shots by both teams, which should be a decent proxy for turnover rate (note: I used total shots instead of total shots by my team because the more I turn it over, the more my shot total goes down, but the game shot total stays high). I've listed that as a decimal ratio. 

So here are the numbers. 

120 shots, 19 turnovers (.16), 45% FG (39 ATH, 50 SPD, 41 DEF)
96 shots, 18 turnovers (.19), 45% FG (35 ATH, 43 SPD, 36 DEF)
89 shots, 14 turnovers (.16) , 39% FG (42 ATH, 37 SPD, 40 DEF)
111 shots, 16 turnovers (.14), 48% FG (32 ATH, 44 SPD, 27 DEF)

79 shots, 15 turnovers (.19), 56% FG (42 ATH, 46 SPD, 46 DEF)
83 shots, 16 turnovers (.19), 42% FG (55 ATH, 51 SPD, 59 DEF)
118 shots, 17 turnovers (.14) , 56% FG (37 ATH, 54 SPD, 37 DEF)
100 shots, 11 turnovers (.11), 57% FG (32 ATH, 46 SPD, 30 DEF)
94 shots, 10 turnovers  (.11), 57% FG (23 ATH, 53 SPD, 24 DEF)
85 shots, 13 turnovers, (.15) 43% (39 ATH, 46 SPD, 42 DEF)


Four games at normal tempo:

Average opponent ratings: 37 ATH, 44 SPD, 36 DEF

Average turnovers/total shots: .16
Average FG: 44%
Record: 1-3 (including loss as -31 favorite)


Six games at slowdown

Average opponent ratings: 38 ATH, 49 SPD, 38 DEF

average turnovers/total shots: .15
average FG: 52%
record: 4-2 (including win as +10 underdog)

How does that work with y'all's observations? What's the conclusion? Other than it's obviously worked better for my particular team. 
1/31/2013 9:36 PM
Do you think that UT takes SP and BH into account more, whereas slowdown takes ATH and P?  I think about in real life, slowdown type teams pass the ball around more and eventually either pass it down low to the bigs or drive to the hoop.  I know WIS and real life aren't always the same, and I don't have any data; just curious to see your thoughts.
1/31/2013 11:54 PM
I used to weigh my opponent's STAM and DEF heavily on whether to run uptempo. Then I read on forums that a lot more needs to go into that decision. Having an advantage at ATH and SPD may be reason to UT. Early in the non-con schedule against a young team that hasn't learned the other teams DEF is an opportunity. If you have a superior DEF you could take a chance. If your playing on the road you could run into problems running UT.
2/16/2013 1:57 PM
Good forum, since I'm a little confused.  Tarvalon, since you went slowdown are your starters getting more playing time.  If so then that makes sense why your FG% is up and TO's are down.  I do know during uptempo that your back ups are playing more minnutes.  That's been proven. 
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