4/5/2013 2:37 PM
Defense wins championships, right?

To double or not to double... this is a question for you defense-minded vet coaches. When deciding to double team what are signs you look for? What are signs that tell you not to double team?

The answer seems obvious. A bunch of offensive studs and a balanced attack... not good to double team. One or two main scorers, good to double team...

But how often do you do it? For example, lets say you double the opponent's leading offensive player every single game. Would you lose more or win more doing that?

4/5/2013 2:45 PM
I am also curious to hear answers on this....and also want to add, can you/do you ever doubleteam 2 players for a game?
4/5/2013 2:50 PM
I double team based upon several factors.

First, I usually only DT players who are scorers for the opposing team. I want to make sure I'm doing what I can to limit their scoring abilities, and the DT is one quick way to do that.

Second, I use it to hedge my defense in some situations, such as in DIII if the other team has just one guy with a high enough perimeter rating to justify him being a real three point threat. In that case, I'd probably shade my entire defense into negative numbers on positioning (defend inside) but I want to make sure the one three point threat doesn't gain too much of an advantage from that, so I'll double team him to cut down on that.

Third, if I'm in a man to man and I have a weaker defender and I don't have a better option, I may simply DT the guy he guards to "offer help", so to speak.

That isn't everything I do, but it's a few ideas. I like to think I'm a defensive minded coach, but I'm only a decent coach and not a great one to begin with, so others who know better, feel free to chime in (and correct me if necessary).

4/5/2013 3:18 PM
I prefer to double team when maybe the offensive stud has a glaring weakness like low BH/PA and also may be a terrible FT shooter. You have to weigh your options and don't just look at scoring. If your goal is for the opponent to turn the ball over, look for low BH/PA ratings on players who rack up lots of PT. DT has so many different strategies where it can be used, but I notice sometimes when I double team a true stud, I end up just fouling them all game. Sometimes it's like there is no DT and they just shoot over the DT and make the shot...
4/5/2013 3:29 PM
In no particular order, I look for opposing players who have 1. a high percentage of the offense run through them (they don't have to be the top scorer, they just need the ball in their hands), 2. Poor BH and Pass ratings and 3. A lower offensive IQ (preferably B or worse). Typically these factors mean I'm doubling in the post or I'm simply not doubling at all.
4/5/2013 3:30 PM
Reddyred... I noticed that in one game too. Dteamed a guy and his point production actually went up. Arghh! So, you say only DT if the shooter has trouble with bh/p or free throws... yes?
4/5/2013 4:08 PM
While it makes sense from a logical perspective to use a DT on guys with low BH and/or P, I haven't actually seen it work well that way in practice. I would love for someone to show me some concrete examples of a successful double team which created turnovers on guys with low BH and/or P.

I do know that it has helped me in some of the circumstances I mentioned, particularly in hedging against a single perimeter or low post scorer who hasn't torn me up despite my shading the defense the other way.

4/5/2013 4:24 PM
I've seen DT against low BH and PA work a lot, in particular low BH. (You'll read in the PBP such and such loses ball out of a DT or such and such steals ball out of DT)  Nothing is 100% but I think that looking at the factors mentioned above when you find the right situation use the DT (1 or 2 more TO a game could be the deciding factor in a W or L). It's not something you'll use every game so don't over do it. Good coaches will see that you DT a lot and game plan for you.

 I think you have to define what is low BH/PA in these cases and I believe that 40-60 BH(this varies across divisions) is low for guards but I try not to DT 60'sh guys as that can go either way sometimes. Also as rednu pointed out, low IQ is something you should pay attention to. Again there are probably some coaches out there who do the complete opposite or have some other philosophy, but this has really worked out for me, especially recently.  

You have to understand if you DT someone, you are leaving someone else completely open which very well may be detrimental to your defense so be wary of the entire roster. But I love when I see a player that is super high in PER and has like 50sh BH and lower and gets massive distro because that could be a perfect player to DT. 

Look at distro, look at PT, look at IQ and the overall players skill then make your decision.  
4/5/2013 4:35 PM
I run both my M2M and Zone Ds with half-court press and always have.  I just like the pressure it puts on most opponents--I tend to cause lots of turnovers, steals, bad passes thrown out of bounds.  My teams usually rank among the conference leaders in scoring defense, which to me is the whole point of defense, yes?  To keep the other team from scoring?  Now, offense, on the other hand...

Anyway, when it comes to deciding whether or not to DT someone, I focus primarily on PPG, Off%, and FG%.  A guy has to be double digits in scoring--with a few very rare exceptions--hiis Off% has to be over 10%, and his FG % needs to be noticeably superior for his position, before I will even consider double-teaming someone, and I hardly ever set it for "Always".  Normally, if I'm going to double-team a guy it will be because he presents some kind of problem I can't really address with a single player.  I really liked bistiza's post--shows the flexibility double-teaming brings to game-planning.  I know a lot of coaches like to build their teams to a "set-it-and-forget-it" profile, but I prefer having options--lots of them--and double-teaming, used sparingly and thoughtfully, can be a great tool for building victories.

4/5/2013 6:17 PM
@bistiza you can look at my Marshall team and check the PBP from my game against Tulane in the CT. I DT the starting PF who has bad BH ratings but played a significant role in the offense. In this particular game the DT was effective and helped me get the W as a decided underdog. The C is actually the main option on this Tulane team according to the distribution, but I think the coach tried to play a more well rounded game against me and the DT worked in my favor with the PF getting more touches and then really succumbing to the DT.

There are other games like this with even better results but I'd have to look for them.
4/5/2013 6:21 PM
This was a DT always call too so kinda risky.
4/5/2013 7:27 PM
Posted by bistiza on 4/5/2013 4:08:00 PM (view original):
While it makes sense from a logical perspective to use a DT on guys with low BH and/or P, I haven't actually seen it work well that way in practice. I would love for someone to show me some concrete examples of a successful double team which created turnovers on guys with low BH and/or P.

I do know that it has helped me in some of the circumstances I mentioned, particularly in hedging against a single perimeter or low post scorer who hasn't torn me up despite my shading the defense the other way.

Let the debate continue! It really does help newbie brains.

My natural instinct is to play aggressive on defense... I have a young team with a crap crappy offense because I made big recruiting errors. Initially, I saw my team competing with more talented teams while I slowed the tempo down and double teamed. However, I know I'm using the double team too much. It's really helpful to hear when and how you vets use it.

4/8/2013 9:20 AM
I get the idea that the double team affected him, reddyred, and he had four turnovers. But so did the center, who I presume (didn't check PBP for it) you did not DT.

Essentially what I guess I'm saying is I know the DT has a negative effect on the player who gets DT'd, but does it create more turnovers specifically because he has a low BH? This makes logical sense, but is it actually a part of the game logic? Or does a DT just mean lower FG percent and more contested shots?

4/8/2013 12:18 PM
The C may have just had a bad game. If this is a game of probabilities then it's more probable for a low BH/PA player to TO the ball period. Throughout the course of a season the stats should reflect this given the player has an active role on the team. I believe DT affects FG% but I think the DEF rating has more affect on FG% and the probability of a foul being called than the actual DT (this is why some coaches don't DT if they have a great defender on a stud) and physical attributes like speed and athleticism create steals... I lean more towards speed for creating steals as I have had some terribly rated defenders lead my team in steals on a number of occasions and they've either had very high speed, ATH or some combination of both.

It's hard to tell what the DT will do exactly to a low BH/PA player but I believe that either the player will TO the ball or the player will take bad shots or the player just may pass out of the DT and the stats might not reflect a DT took place. You would notice lower FG attempts though. I've tried to DT players with very high BH and sometimes it works too, but majority of the time I have noticed more fouls initiated and essentially I may help that high BH player score even more with a DT because of his skill set. I do believe that the probability is greater that a low BH player will have more difficulty in a DT than a high BH player and I'd have to base my strategy this way. As for game logic, Seble would have to really comment on that for a more definitive answer but I would say yes based on what I have noticed. 

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