All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > coach_billyg - A Manefesto on 1st Class Usership
4/18/2013 12:37 PM

I'd also say that the argument that you don't need multiple teams in one world because you could just join another world is a bad one. One a day worlds can be very slow. I'm only in two of them, mainly because one was the first one I was ever in, and Wooden because I wanted a new challenge. Even in Wooden, I realize its going to take me probably 6 months real time to field a competitive S16 team.

I'd much rather play in a 2 a day world and do it in half the time. Or maybe I want to get to D1 fast. But in a one a day world, that will take me a long time, real time. If these were all the same types of worlds, then I could see this argument working. But you aren't comparing apples to apples here.  I'm currently in D1 Tark, and don't want to move from my cush MSU job, but I've also considered dropping down to take on the challenge of D2, because it's very competitive there as well with the GLV conference and others. I have never been in Allen world for example, and have no interest in a one a day world where I don't know the first thing about who's in it, and would take me forever to get anywhere, etc. 

Under people's argument here, I can't get a second ID to take on the D2 Tark challenge, because the minute I make the ID, i'm now a cheater because multiple ID's = automatic cheater. That's a false equation. There are legitimate reasons to not allow multiple ID's that I agree with. But lets not muddy up the water with false equations, non sequitur arguments and the rest.

4/18/2013 12:45 PM
I think the argument is having a 2nd team gives you a competitive advantage, not makes you an auto cheater.

I do think your point is valid though.   If you only want to play in 2 a day worlds and you have a team in each, I think as a company selling something, I would want you to be able to buy another team.
4/18/2013 12:48 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/18/2013 12:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/17/2013 11:46:00 PM (view original):
Robbing HD blind by.............. paying for seasons, keeping more than one team from being a sim recruited and coached disaster,  creating a competitive atmosphere in several conferences where many coaches gather to compete, being in many places at one time to offer support and guidance to new coaches rather than just one place.  Not to mention the amount of people who try this game because someone who is one of these evil multi-account coaches, mentioned it to them or outright recruited them to come and give it a try.  And in some cases, all of this across multiple worlds.

Sorry, I don't see your point. How is it HD is being robbed?

You're making my point for me, it's even worse when you take into account everything that you just mentioned. Doing all those things while purposefully undermining, being an accomplice, or having some knowledge of the fraud being perpetrated (and/or not saying anything) is as cynical as it gets.

P.S. I didn't think multi-account users were evil until I read billyg's insider take on them.

I still don't see where the robbing comes into play.  
4/18/2013 12:49 PM
Posted by sublightd on 4/18/2013 12:38:00 PM (view original):

I'd also say that the argument that you don't need multiple teams in one world because you could just join another world is a bad one. One a day worlds can be very slow. I'm only in two of them, mainly because one was the first one I was ever in, and Wooden because I wanted a new challenge. Even in Wooden, I realize its going to take me probably 6 months real time to field a competitive S16 team.

I'd much rather play in a 2 a day world and do it in half the time. Or maybe I want to get to D1 fast. But in a one a day world, that will take me a long time, real time. If these were all the same types of worlds, then I could see this argument working. But you aren't comparing apples to apples here.  I'm currently in D1 Tark, and don't want to move from my cush MSU job, but I've also considered dropping down to take on the challenge of D2, because it's very competitive there as well with the GLV conference and others. I have never been in Allen world for example, and have no interest in a one a day world where I don't know the first thing about who's in it, and would take me forever to get anywhere, etc. 

Under people's argument here, I can't get a second ID to take on the D2 Tark challenge, because the minute I make the ID, i'm now a cheater because multiple ID's = automatic cheater. That's a false equation. There are legitimate reasons to not allow multiple ID's that I agree with. But lets not muddy up the water with false equations, non sequitur arguments and the rest.

Correct. Taking on a second ID in Tark to take the D2 challenge could and would give you an unfair advantage in that world with FSS scouting benefiting you both at MSU and your new D2 school.

Duh.

Duh.

Duuuuuuh!

How is that equation false? If you cared about being moral you would choose to stay put or to leave MSU for D2 GLV. Decisions decisions. In an ideal world, we don't all get to take take take, have our cake and eat it too. Make a choice.
4/18/2013 12:50 PM
Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
"You're insinuating that billyg has admitted that those with two accounts have a higher incidence of cheating than any random sample of WIS users. He admitted no such thing."

That's debatable. And also not the point. I don't need an admission from billyg to tell me that those with two accounts have a higher incidence of cheating than a random sample of other WIS users.

The point is that having two teams within one world is cheating. That's the point. I guess it's possible you aren't even consciously cheating. But you are cheating. There is a database of recruiting information intended to be available to one team controlled by one person rather than 2 or 3 teams controlled by one person all sharing in that knowledge.

I have not said there are not other ways to cheat on this site. What I have said is that the solution is clear and that billyg's and other elites arguments crying out against it are ridiculous. Seble at WIS has seen the apparent problem and asked us what he should do about it. The answer to that question is more than clear.
How is it cheating?  I've had 2 teams in the same world (different divisions and different regions)...how did I cheat?  Please, dumb it down for me and explain how I did it. 
4/18/2013 12:53 PM
P.S. I'm not asking how it's possible to cheat with 2 accounts.  That's well documented.  I'm asking how having 2 accounts is in and of itself cheating.
4/18/2013 12:59 PM
It's not, at present.  It's explicitly allowed under the 1000 mile rule.
4/18/2013 1:11 PM
be best for the game if the man or men in charge addressed these concerns.

I probably exchanged a half dozen (maybe a dozen) ticket responses with tarek (who was more liberal on this issue than seble) a long time ago, and tarek had no problem with multiple teams.  At the time, one rather famous coach managed to get to maybe all six major conferences with alias's (or close).  I have no indication he cheated, ever, he just liked the game.

I would suggest however, these 'how you should approach things' should be dummied up into the software of the game or made into rules.  My idea, of only letting guys see their division and drop downs, coupled with one team per division as rule, would eliminate the most obvious cheating that goes on. Again, we need some leadership from those running the game on this issue.  Or, even more simple, one team per world, no alias's allowed could be instituted.  In the past (tarek told me) that the feeling was this one team, no alias rule would cause a loss of revenue, I doubted that, but never convinced him otherwise.

Has anyone asked seble in light of all this sincere frustration all of a sudden being voiced the past few days?  If not, nothing will change.

4/18/2013 1:25 PM
craigcoug -- You're the most vocal person I've seen here, and if you're really as new to HD as your resume suggests (three games) and it's not an alias, then you're not really qualified to opine. That's not to say that you can't express your opinion -- you can, of course, ad naueseum -- but you don't understand the game, the community, and how it works. Your just not coming from a place of knowledge.

nacho -- I think you are vastly overstating issues that may be present with those who have multiple IDs. You're acting as though anyone with multiple teams/IDs must be cheating, and that it's rampant. I would say that it's almost certainly much, much more the exception than the rule. There are also people that cheat with their friends, with their conference mates, etc -- and that's more common than the multiple ID thing. It's not something that can be effectively policed -- not even close.

So the question is, in order to target some smaller segment of multiple ID users who might be cheating (while plenty of non-multiple ID users are doing the same), do we (a) go back on what everyone has already been promised for quite some time and (b) really anger a lot of long-time users? Again, I have just two teams, both under this ID. But I think it would be a terrible ID that creates way more problems than it solves. And I know people that have been playing HD for a long time that would drop some or all of their other teams because of it.

Bad idea.
4/18/2013 1:33 PM
Posted by craigaltonw on 4/18/2013 3:53:00 AM (view original):
Posted by scthallfan on 4/18/2013 3:36:00 AM (view original):
It's possible to cheat by chatting in the coaches corner too....BAN THAT TOO
it's also possible to cheat through site mail, uh oh....BAN HAMMER!
What's that? Two owners know each other in real life? Oh they can cheat through email, phone calls, and texts so we should ban computers and phones too!
While I agree that something should be done to prevent people using a second team in a world to help their first team, a blanket banning of second accounts is not the answer. 1) WiS will alienate a lot of paying customers by doing this and 2) it's not that hard to get around. I used to play an app game that banned you from selling resources to your own alt account by stopping accounts being able to buy and sell between different accounts using the same IP address...well within seconds of that update going live people already knew how to get around it and that info spread like wild fire. By banning accounts, the only thing you will do is make there be less transparency with alts...people will find a way around it and not tell anyone...where as now I'd be willing to bet at least 90% of coaches using a second account would be willing to disclose that fact at any time now.
Which second account do you have that you are most upset about losing?
I'm not worried about losing my second account, which I named in the multiple accounts thread. I'm not sure what I'd do if they made me choose between the two but I still think they would be making a mistake by banning second accounts. I'd spend half as much money here, at the very most and maybe quitting altogether again, not to mention all the other people that have multiple teams spending that much less money. I have a D1 team and a D3 team in Naismith that are just over 1000 miles apart, which is consistent with what has been allowed.
4/18/2013 2:08 PM
Posted by llamanunts on 4/18/2013 12:59:00 PM (view original):
It's not, at present.  It's explicitly allowed under the 1000 mile rule.
He said "The point is that having two teams within one world is cheating."   That's what I'm asking about.
4/18/2013 2:48 PM
Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by sublightd on 4/18/2013 12:38:00 PM (view original):

I'd also say that the argument that you don't need multiple teams in one world because you could just join another world is a bad one. One a day worlds can be very slow. I'm only in two of them, mainly because one was the first one I was ever in, and Wooden because I wanted a new challenge. Even in Wooden, I realize its going to take me probably 6 months real time to field a competitive S16 team.

I'd much rather play in a 2 a day world and do it in half the time. Or maybe I want to get to D1 fast. But in a one a day world, that will take me a long time, real time. If these were all the same types of worlds, then I could see this argument working. But you aren't comparing apples to apples here.  I'm currently in D1 Tark, and don't want to move from my cush MSU job, but I've also considered dropping down to take on the challenge of D2, because it's very competitive there as well with the GLV conference and others. I have never been in Allen world for example, and have no interest in a one a day world where I don't know the first thing about who's in it, and would take me forever to get anywhere, etc. 

Under people's argument here, I can't get a second ID to take on the D2 Tark challenge, because the minute I make the ID, i'm now a cheater because multiple ID's = automatic cheater. That's a false equation. There are legitimate reasons to not allow multiple ID's that I agree with. But lets not muddy up the water with false equations, non sequitur arguments and the rest.

Correct. Taking on a second ID in Tark to take the D2 challenge could and would give you an unfair advantage in that world with FSS scouting benefiting you both at MSU and your new D2 school.

Duh.

Duh.

Duuuuuuh!

How is that equation false? If you cared about being moral you would choose to stay put or to leave MSU for D2 GLV. Decisions decisions. In an ideal world, we don't all get to take take take, have our cake and eat it too. Make a choice.
So now you get to decide what is and isn't moral?  Who died and made you God?
4/18/2013 3:23 PM
Posted by girt25 on 4/18/2013 1:25:00 PM (view original):
craigcoug -- You're the most vocal person I've seen here, and if you're really as new to HD as your resume suggests (three games) and it's not an alias, then you're not really qualified to opine. That's not to say that you can't express your opinion -- you can, of course, ad naueseum -- but you don't understand the game, the community, and how it works. Your just not coming from a place of knowledge.

nacho -- I think you are vastly overstating issues that may be present with those who have multiple IDs. You're acting as though anyone with multiple teams/IDs must be cheating, and that it's rampant. I would say that it's almost certainly much, much more the exception than the rule. There are also people that cheat with their friends, with their conference mates, etc -- and that's more common than the multiple ID thing. It's not something that can be effectively policed -- not even close.

So the question is, in order to target some smaller segment of multiple ID users who might be cheating (while plenty of non-multiple ID users are doing the same), do we (a) go back on what everyone has already been promised for quite some time and (b) really anger a lot of long-time users? Again, I have just two teams, both under this ID. But I think it would be a terrible ID that creates way more problems than it solves. And I know people that have been playing HD for a long time that would drop some or all of their other teams because of it.

Bad idea.
+1
4/18/2013 3:25 PM
Posted by ll316 on 4/18/2013 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 4/18/2013 12:59:00 PM (view original):
It's not, at present.  It's explicitly allowed under the 1000 mile rule.
He said "The point is that having two teams within one world is cheating."   That's what I'm asking about.
I hear ya, and that's what I was answering about.  Having two teams within one world is not cheating.  He imagines that it is.
4/18/2013 3:40 PM (edited)
Posted by llamanunts on 4/18/2013 3:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ll316 on 4/18/2013 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 4/18/2013 12:59:00 PM (view original):
It's not, at present.  It's explicitly allowed under the 1000 mile rule.
He said "The point is that having two teams within one world is cheating."   That's what I'm asking about.
I hear ya, and that's what I was answering about.  Having two teams within one world is not cheating.  He imagines that it is.
Ohh, ok.  Same page then.  I'd just like to have it spelled out for me because (apparently) my entire moral base is a little off.
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