All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > coach_billyg - A Manefesto on 1st Class Usership
4/18/2013 3:55 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by teamrc on 4/18/2013 1:24:00 AM (view original):
This thread needs to be removed.
The coaches listed by BillyG don't need defended by anyone.
I haven't said anything about any of those individual coaches, and I'll happily defend some of them.

What's worse, the topic of my thread or billyg name dropping coaches like these then loosely claiming that some of them have been long term cheaters? Because I don't think they'll be too happy. Or maybe we should just remove it altogether because people think the sacred cows are above criticism, and hypothetical rules like one team per world (despite the fact that they probably haven't even seen this thread yet because it's the middle of the night).

Except maybe the part where you referred to the whole lot as a pack of vultures, but besides that, no.
4/18/2013 5:39 PM (edited)
holy cow some really dense people out there.

a whole lot of assuming going out there, especially on nacho and craig. 

you get on your high horse rush to conclusions and you just cant seem to accept that  you MIGHT be wrong. 

as someone said, billyg knows every i and out of the game from learning it and thats where his success comes in. lots of people that play have very good analytical abilities which comes in handy in this game. pretty much all the guys billy g listed do if not all. 

so as the old saying goes. dont assume you just make an *** out of you and you. 



4/18/2013 6:19 PM
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/18/2013 2:20:00 AM (view original):
Ok. That's fair enough, if that's your beef, then I understand (now) the point you are aiming at.     I did not take his post in the same way you meant it to be taken because, I took it as a blanket statement, meaning whatever group is chosen to be singled out and eliminated, some cheaters will be caught in the net.

I do not view myself as a cheater, I do not condone cheating in any way, shape or form and I have NEVER used an alias account to unfairly target someones recruits, gain unfair scouting advantage for one team by using the cash of another of my teams. I have never conspired with myself or with another coach in any kind of player auction, or to throw a game, be it regular season, CT, PI, or NT and I have had 2 teams meet in all 4 situations at one time or another in the 6 years I have been a user of this site. It's rare, but you don't get to pick your post season brackets. I don't schedule my same world teams to play each other, even in exhibition. I go to sometimes great lengths to NOT recruit players from ANY same state where another teams players are from, REGARDLESS of where those teams are located OR the state in question. I HAVE on occasion sitemailed a coach to see if a recruit is a priority for them or if he's just a place holder, but those occasions are rare and almost always occur when a coach has more considering than he has spots open. Most times I will simply charge in regardless, or not, as the situation dictates. I can't see anyway to make that example cheating, without a lot more info changing hands and their never is anymore than a "yes he is" or a "no he isn't". On the rare occasion when I get the No answer, I NEVER jump right on, but simply wait and see what happens as things develop. People do change their minds.

But, I also know that people are always going to try to game the system. Whether it's HD or any other game, you have people for whatever reason are always going to be looking for any way to get a leg up on the competition, so I accept that in any group you can pick and eliminate, you will take some cheaters out when you do.

If they eliminate multi accounts in the same world, some will quit, some will stay, and some will find ways around it. IP washers, throw away debit/credit cards, multiple computers, etc.   And I'm positive that some creative soul out there will think of other ways that I can't even imagine at the moment. That's just life and people in general.
the first paragraph sums it up.

im not sure why a couple guys are twisting what i said to such an extent, but i havent always been the clearest person, so maybe some small responsibility is mine (although in this case, i really think people are trying to make a point about something more than actually thinking that is what i meant). to make it clear - i was not saying any of the listed coaches were cheating, nor that any more multiple team in a world coaches cheat than their single team counterparts. also, there was absolutely no admission of guilt, i havent a clue where that came from (well, i have an inkling that it came straight out of someone's ***)
4/18/2013 6:23 PM (edited)
Posted by dvgagz on 4/18/2013 2:47:00 AM (view original):
I appreciate your thread nachopuzzle. As a relative newbie to HD I initially looked upon those lists of successful coaches with multiple championships and was very impressed. But now after reading the other thread and billyg's comment that has been placed under a magnifying glass from this thread, I'm not sure what to think. Is it mere coincidence that many of the "elite" coaches have multiple accounts in the same world? I would like to believe that many (hopefully all) of these coaches are NOT cheating but unfortunately there is no way to really know.  So how impressed should I really be with their success?  It's like the steroids issue in baseball.  How impressive are the accomplishments of those players knowing there's a possibility they may have used PEDs? 

I agree the whole situation is fubar and only exacerbated by a comment from an elite coach. 

its NOT a coincidence. if you read the other thread, i clearly say multiple times, its not a coincidence. simply put, those who intensely study and analyze this game to the extent it takes to be one of the top coaches, are generally some of the most passionate coaches. those who cannot bear to leave a program behind, and use another ID to pick it up (the most common entry-point to multiple teams in a world), are also generally some of the most passionate coaches. *for those two groups to substantially overlap is exactly what a rational person should expect*

edit: i dont mean to be a dick in this post. but some of my comments here are cherry picked and then twisted beyond recognition. if you go read my actual comments, the ones i made myself, in the proper context - i think it will become abundantly clear just how ridiculous this thread it.
4/18/2013 6:23 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 4/18/2013 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dvgagz on 4/18/2013 2:47:00 AM (view original):
I appreciate your thread nachopuzzle. As a relative newbie to HD I initially looked upon those lists of successful coaches with multiple championships and was very impressed. But now after reading the other thread and billyg's comment that has been placed under a magnifying glass from this thread, I'm not sure what to think. Is it mere coincidence that many of the "elite" coaches have multiple accounts in the same world? I would like to believe that many (hopefully all) of these coaches are NOT cheating but unfortunately there is no way to really know.  So how impressed should I really be with their success?  It's like the steroids issue in baseball.  How impressive are the accomplishments of those players knowing there's a possibility they may have used PEDs? 

I agree the whole situation is fubar and only exacerbated by a comment from an elite coach. 

its NOT a coincidence. if you read the other thread, i clearly say multiple times, its not a coincidence. simply put, those who intensely study and analyze this game to the extent it takes to be one of the top coaches, are generally some of the most passionate coaches. those who cannot bear to leave a program behind, and use another ID to pick it up (the most common entry-point to multiple teams in a world), are also generally some of the most passionate coaches. *for those two groups to substantially overlap is exactly what a rational person should expect*

edit: i dont mean to be a dick in this post. but some of my comments here are cherry picked and then twisted beyond recognition. if you go read my actual comments, the ones i made myself, in the proper context - i think it will become abundantly clear just how ridiculous this thread it.
Got the correlation right, got the causation backwards (him, not you)
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4/18/2013 7:05 PM
I understand both sides of this argument, like most. The rule is teams in the same world must be at least 1000 miles apart. I'm not sure what the significance of 1000 miles is, but that's the arbitrary number seble came up with. Anyone with two teams who is following this rule are within their rights. On the other hand, I can understand some of the suspicion by new coaches and older coaches alike. Not knowing if you're competing for a recruit with a coach who may have another team in the same world only fuels the kind of speculation displayed on this and other topics.

As far as I'm concerned, I have my hands full focusing on my team in D3 Iba under this account, and my D3 team in Smith under flashlantern, to be worried much about what everyone else may be doing to game the system. I figure if I'm good enough at this game, it won't matter how many cheaters there are, I'll hold my own against anyone...
4/18/2013 8:25 PM
I figure if I'm good enough at this game, it won't matter how many cheaters there are, I'll hold my own against anyone...

For sure. Well said.
4/18/2013 8:44 PM
Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by sublightd on 4/18/2013 12:38:00 PM (view original):

I'd also say that the argument that you don't need multiple teams in one world because you could just join another world is a bad one. One a day worlds can be very slow. I'm only in two of them, mainly because one was the first one I was ever in, and Wooden because I wanted a new challenge. Even in Wooden, I realize its going to take me probably 6 months real time to field a competitive S16 team.

I'd much rather play in a 2 a day world and do it in half the time. Or maybe I want to get to D1 fast. But in a one a day world, that will take me a long time, real time. If these were all the same types of worlds, then I could see this argument working. But you aren't comparing apples to apples here.  I'm currently in D1 Tark, and don't want to move from my cush MSU job, but I've also considered dropping down to take on the challenge of D2, because it's very competitive there as well with the GLV conference and others. I have never been in Allen world for example, and have no interest in a one a day world where I don't know the first thing about who's in it, and would take me forever to get anywhere, etc. 

Under people's argument here, I can't get a second ID to take on the D2 Tark challenge, because the minute I make the ID, i'm now a cheater because multiple ID's = automatic cheater. That's a false equation. There are legitimate reasons to not allow multiple ID's that I agree with. But lets not muddy up the water with false equations, non sequitur arguments and the rest.

Correct. Taking on a second ID in Tark to take the D2 challenge could and would give you an unfair advantage in that world with FSS scouting benefiting you both at MSU and your new D2 school.

Duh.

Duh.

Duuuuuuh!

How is that equation false? If you cared about being moral you would choose to stay put or to leave MSU for D2 GLV. Decisions decisions. In an ideal world, we don't all get to take take take, have our cake and eat it too. Make a choice.
If he pays for both, he can eat what he wants
4/18/2013 8:59 PM
Got the correlation right, got the causation backwards (him, not you)
I sure hope I have it backwards!  Just to be clear, I'm not calling any of the elite coaches or anyone who has multiple accounts in the same world cheaters. I still respect the accomplishments of the elite coaches.  I understand the passion that people have for this game and can truly appreciate the coaches that are hardcore and study the game intensely. That passion is one of the things I like about the HD community, especially when elite coaches are willing to share what they've learned from their experiences to help other coaches improve.  In fact, billyg your interview and many of your posts that I've read have actually helped me quite a bit in this game, so thank you!   But when a coach is using multiple teams within the same world it can create a perception to new players who have no history with the game that there's a possiblity of cheating, whether or not the intent was there.  That unfortunately can taint an elite coach's success. 
4/18/2013 9:52 PM
Posted by ll316 on 4/18/2013 12:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/18/2013 12:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/17/2013 11:46:00 PM (view original):
Robbing HD blind by.............. paying for seasons, keeping more than one team from being a sim recruited and coached disaster,  creating a competitive atmosphere in several conferences where many coaches gather to compete, being in many places at one time to offer support and guidance to new coaches rather than just one place.  Not to mention the amount of people who try this game because someone who is one of these evil multi-account coaches, mentioned it to them or outright recruited them to come and give it a try.  And in some cases, all of this across multiple worlds.

Sorry, I don't see your point. How is it HD is being robbed?

You're making my point for me, it's even worse when you take into account everything that you just mentioned. Doing all those things while purposefully undermining, being an accomplice, or having some knowledge of the fraud being perpetrated (and/or not saying anything) is as cynical as it gets.

P.S. I didn't think multi-account users were evil until I read billyg's insider take on them.

I still don't see where the robbing comes into play.  
I answered this in a previous post with the reply:

"When I said HD, I was referring to all the other users that assumed they were competing on somewhat of an equal playing field...all the while they were being undermined by people you claim are the backbone of the game. And freaking seriously, your rationalization is priceless, simply because you hang out on a message board and talk ****, you act like WIS is indebted to you somehow? Now I can understand how you can rationalize standing up for the people game the system...because without them the game wouldn't "survive" [sic. your original words]???

Here is what I think: I THINK A BUNCH FAIR PLAYING NOOBS WOULD BE BETTER OFF BY THEMSELVES THAN GETTING ADVICE FROM THE PACK OF VULTURES YOU CONSIDER INDISPENSABLE TO THE GAME."


4/18/2013 9:58 PM
Oh hey, unsubstantiated claims that veteran players have a significantly higher incidence of cheating than the game population at large. It's like I'm back at this morning again. 
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