All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > coach_billyg - A Manefesto on 1st Class Usership
4/19/2013 5:19 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 4/19/2013 4:59:00 PM (view original):
You sure beat around the bush a lot with what looked to be intentional misinterpretation of his comments. If you had just made that accusation. . . well, it probably still would've caused a firefight, because people like billyg and he helps a lot of folks. But I at least wouldn't have regarded it as ridiculous (as I did this thread)
I've said it clearly over-and-over throughout this thread. Sometimes making people present the most damning evidence against themselves is the only way to solidify your point. Especially when others keep trying to hold you to thing that you never claimed.


4/19/2013 5:29 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/19/2013 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tarvolon on 4/19/2013 4:59:00 PM (view original):
You sure beat around the bush a lot with what looked to be intentional misinterpretation of his comments. If you had just made that accusation. . . well, it probably still would've caused a firefight, because people like billyg and he helps a lot of folks. But I at least wouldn't have regarded it as ridiculous (as I did this thread)
I've said it clearly over-and-over throughout this thread. Sometimes making people present the most damning evidence against themselves is the only way to solidify your point. Especially when others keep trying to hold you to thing that you never claimed.


Well I don't remember who's claimed what in this thread, but craigcoug coming in and doctoring quotes probably didn't help your case. I still think the OP is waaaaaaay over-the-top, but if you feel that's the best rhetorical strategy. . . sure, I guess. Go for it. 
4/19/2013 5:29 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 4/19/2013 5:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by killbatman on 4/19/2013 5:02:00 PM (view original):
What am I supposed to find shady about it?  I see 4 international recruits, but all were signed in different classes.  One from CA, which isn't ideal considering he has a D1 team in CA..but not exactly damning evidence by itself.  None signed from his home state is unusual, but plenty of people recruit nationally at D2 and D3 without cheating.  Am I missing something?
Having 10 of your 12 roster players come from outside your 360 mile radius is a bit unusual. Not a definitive sign of cheating, but unusual. It could be explained by that conference being a shark tank and forcing (and enabling, with recruiting money) its members to recruit nationally. the Gulf South is Allen can be a little like that sometimes, although not to that degree. I'm not in Tark, I dunno. But any irregularity will be magnified if you're already suspicious of guys with multiple teams in a world. 

That said, someone (was it billyg himself) has already mentioned that his long-distance recruits almost always come from the highest population states (like Texas, California, and maybe Florida) and indeed four of said six US-based long-distance recruits come from one of those states. And the others don't exactly come from within the recruiting radius of either USC (Ohio, Mississippi)
I get all that, and I agree. But I can make an equally impressive argument about how scouting players that are from outside the 360 mile radius as well as highly populated states and international recruits at the same time is (not to mention almost exclusively in every class) is even more improbable...regardless of what conference your in.

But again, please please please, don't let this little dispute get in the way of the point of thread. I'm not making any direct claims of cheating, and I didn't even bring it up.


4/19/2013 5:37 PM
I don't find "1 recruit signed from within 360 miles" to be damning evidence of anything, but carry on with the point of this thread..even though I'm not completely sure what that is.
4/19/2013 5:41 PM
tarv, it's hard enough to herd one's own sheep sometimes. I honestly put a lot of thought into what I post, especially in response to others, so i guess that I somehow think others will somehow do the same; and I've responded to every single user and comment in this thread that I thought were either a genuine criticism or response.


4/19/2013 5:47 PM
Posted by killbatman on 4/19/2013 5:37:00 PM (view original):
I don't find "1 recruit signed from within 360 miles" to be damning evidence of anything, but carry on with the point of this thread..even though I'm not completely sure what that is.
Well then go the f*ck back and read what I've been saying over the past two and a half days...let alone the last two previous pages, and maybe then you could get past the SIEU comments. I'll defend those nonconsequential comments without a doubt, but they are footnote on this whole thread.


4/19/2013 6:06 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/19/2013 5:41:00 PM (view original):
tarv, it's hard enough to herd one's own sheep sometimes. I honestly put a lot of thought into what I post, especially in response to others, so i guess that I somehow think others will somehow do the same; and I've responded to every single user and comment in this thread that I thought were either a genuine criticism or response.


Fair enough, I respect that. I do think your original comments were quite over-the-top and that the veteran coaches who have multiple teams in a given world aren't robbing WIS blind. I absolutely understand that it can be an avenue for cheating and thus that there's a case for closing said avenue, but I'd want to know how high the incidence of actually cheating is before I made any judgments on the subject. 

I did have one idea just recently come to me that might address some of the possibilities. It's a very unfledged idea, so it may not address it fully, or may be full of holes, but may as well roll it out. How would this sound? 

1. Allow multiple teams in the same world under the same username. 
2. Ban all aliases. 

I'm not an expert in computer coding, so my guesses about what's easy or hard to monitor might be off, but my guess is that the combination of (1) and (2) will facilitate the enforcement of 

3. Two teams coached by the same player in the same world cannot contact players from (or FSS? maybe?) the same US state. They also cannot contact the same international or PR players. 

For instance, if I'm coaching at Kentucky Wesleyan and Caltech in the same world (I'm not), and my KWC sends a letter to stud D2 center in Kansas, my Caltech team can't contact promising dropdown PG in Kansas. 

That may be an enforcement nightmare, or it may not. I have no idea. It may have huge holes it in. I dunno. But I feel like it addresses the problem that the 1000 mile rule was meant to address. And if it works, the 1000 mile rule becomes obsolete. I can coach two teams in the same conference if I want, as long as my recruiting doesn't overlap at all. 
4/19/2013 6:11 PM
I see what you are aiming at here, but I think also that being new, you'll also tend to take the 360 mile radius thing to an inaccurate conclusion. 360 is a rough measurement for where the price and your money make things very difficult for you IF you were in a battle. That's all. Uncontested recruits can be signed for $110 from Siberia or any other long distance location. If no one contests the recruitment, you win, plain and simple. 

Another thing you are probably not taking into consideration is that the area around the school in question is well saturated with other schools on all 3 Division levels. Maybe he doesn't want to fight for every single recruit every season, maybe he doesn't feel the recruits, even the better ones from that area, are worth the high cost of fighting 1 or more school to sign them. My school is in Texas, and Texas is a BIG state, most of my recruits come from Texas, but while that says something to you (maybe), it doesn't tell you the whole story, even though you think it might. 

El Paso, Tx is 570+ miles from my campus, Redford, Tx is 500+ miles from my campus, Dalhart, Tx is also over 570+ miles from me and yet I've had recruits from all those places in seasons past. Once you are over the 350 to 500 mile range the difference in price per mile is much less dramatic than it is when you are under 360 miles.  I almost always scout Texas, because I'd be a fool not to, but I also always scout at least 1 other big state and later on in recruiting I will sometimes search for specific attributes and if I see something, I like, I may scout either his whole state or maybe do 1-2 scout trips. And, again, if the recruit is uncontested, your costs are NIL.

Recruiting classes cycle up and down in quality, sometimes you simply can't find anyone locally who meets your needs. I can't state this enough, if there is no battle, there is NO REASON not to recruit nationally. I can recruit a guy from Maine, if his cores look good and I get a single scout report that tells me what I want to hear w/o scouting the whole state, and I can do it reasonably cheap as long as there is no other school fishing.

4/19/2013 6:13 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/18/2013 2:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by craigcoug on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):
It would seem to me that the beef would be with this statement:

"wiping those teams would sound good for a minute... and i'm sure some of those multiple team guys are cheating, so you'd find a few cheaters...but the game can't survive wiping out so many of the teams from so many of the stable long term members of the community."

....shouldn't we all have beef with that statement? pretty much sounds like admission of guilt to me.
Craig, HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD, and I don't understand why this statement on it's own is not extremely controversial. He's saying that he is implicitly aware of major long-term users with multiple accounts using them to cheat. How is this not scandalous on it's own.

However, to be fair, there has been a recent line of thought that concerns "grandfathering in" certain well known users to have multiple teams per world despite the practice being disallowed to all other coaches. So, the quote I posted by billyg was his reasoning for extending this privilege to specific users, AND WITHIN HIS JUSTIFICATION HE READILY ADMITTED THIS PRIVILEGE HAD ALREADY BEEN VIOLATED, yet despite this it was necessary for the "survival" of the game.

It really can't be laid out more plainly than that. Not mention how matter-of-factly the notion was proposed, which is scary in it's own right, he is saying that there are certain players that are too big to fail (because without them their knowledge won't trickle down to the rest of us second class users and in a week we'll be starting centers at the shooting guard position).

Responding to this post, since "it can't be any more plainly laid out" than this.

1. You support craig's butchering of the original quote with ellipses, "craig HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD" ,and reiterate that you think billyg is "implicitly aware of major long-term users with multiple accounts using them to cheat."  He did not say that at all, so this is just nonsense.

2. The main reason provided that you're against grandfathering is that billyg has "READILY ADMITTED THIS PRIVELAGE [sic] HAD ALREADY BEEN VIOLATED".  Again, that's false. 

Maybe you can direct me to some sort of point that isn't based on the bastardization of that one quote?
4/19/2013 6:16 PM
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/19/2013 6:11:00 PM (view original):
I see what you are aiming at here, but I think also that being new, you'll also tend to take the 360 mile radius thing to an inaccurate conclusion. 360 is a rough measurement for where the price and your money make things very difficult for you IF you were in a battle. That's all. Uncontested recruits can be signed for $110 from Siberia or any other long distance location. If no one contests the recruitment, you win, plain and simple. 

Another thing you are probably not taking into consideration is that the area around the school in question is well saturated with other schools on all 3 Division levels. Maybe he doesn't want to fight for every single recruit every season, maybe he doesn't feel the recruits, even the better ones from that area, are worth the high cost of fighting 1 or more school to sign them. My school is in Texas, and Texas is a BIG state, most of my recruits come from Texas, but while that says something to you (maybe), it doesn't tell you the whole story, even though you think it might. 

El Paso, Tx is 570+ miles from my campus, Redford, Tx is 500+ miles from my campus, Dalhart, Tx is also over 570+ miles from me and yet I've had recruits from all those places in seasons past. Once you are over the 350 to 500 mile range the difference in price per mile is much less dramatic than it is when you are under 360 miles.  I almost always scout Texas, because I'd be a fool not to, but I also always scout at least 1 other big state and later on in recruiting I will sometimes search for specific attributes and if I see something, I like, I may scout either his whole state or maybe do 1-2 scout trips. And, again, if the recruit is uncontested, your costs are NIL.

Recruiting classes cycle up and down in quality, sometimes you simply can't find anyone locally who meets your needs. I can't state this enough, if there is no battle, there is NO REASON not to recruit nationally. I can recruit a guy from Maine, if his cores look good and I get a single scout report that tells me what I want to hear w/o scouting the whole state, and I can do it reasonably cheap as long as there is no other school fishing.

Wait, if no one is battling you, you should be able to sign recruits for $110. How did I not know this? What do you do, offer a start to everyone? 
4/19/2013 6:21 PM
Yes, 110 special = scholly offer and a start.  It's a very effective way to recruit long-distance, and part of why I don't find the 360 mile thing to be that suspicious.
4/19/2013 6:22 PM
Posted by killbatman on 4/19/2013 6:21:00 PM (view original):
Yes, 110 special = scholly offer and a start.  It's a very effective way to recruit long-distance, and part of why I don't find the 360 mile thing to be that suspicious.
presumably this just means you use a lot of target minutes? and offer redshirts only to local kids? 
4/19/2013 6:25 PM
Although you may not believe this, HD has much bigger issues than anything regarding FFS gaming, multi- acct cheating, or even having 10 teams in 1 world. The formula for winning DOES have variation, but the biggest shortfall in this game is this..... IF you want to win and be the greatest ever, fine, here's the formula: recruit players with 70ish ATH, SPD, DEF, and Stamina regardless of any of their other core ratings, Play the Press defense and put lots of minutes toward practicing O/D. YOU WIN.  You WILL have to fight for those guys, most times, but if you win them regularly and stick to that game plan, bang, you are a successful Dynasty. Period, End of discussion.

I don't do that because I feel that that is gaming the system. I build MY teams the way I want them and I have some modicum of success, but I am certainly not winning championships. So, who's cheating and who's not?

4/19/2013 6:27 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 4/19/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by killbatman on 4/19/2013 6:21:00 PM (view original):
Yes, 110 special = scholly offer and a start.  It's a very effective way to recruit long-distance, and part of why I don't find the 360 mile thing to be that suspicious.
presumably this just means you use a lot of target minutes? and offer redshirts only to local kids? 
Personally I start 1-3 FR on all of my teams just about every season with fatigue settings, but you could do a lot of different things with it.  People overestimate how damaging it is to start 1 or 2 FR, imo.  It would be difficult to inform of RS on anyone long-distance, for sure.

None of my teams fit the "1 recruit within 360" label currently, but I'm positive I've had teams like that at some point just by accident.
4/19/2013 6:28 PM
Gaming the system from within the system is not cheating. Doing things that are explicitly against the rules is cheating. That one's not too hard. There are probably things that aren't explicitly against the rules that I'd consider cheating, but focusing on strategies that are correlated to winning isn't one of them. 
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